Let's Brainstorm how to make post-Dreadfell more fun!

[edge2054]

First of all, I'm sure there's been half a dozen or more topics like this posted over the years. If you know of such a thread please link it!

I want to gather ideas for 1.4 that would make the end game more fun and interesting. Preferably we don't want to increase the length of the game much.

But optional zones, unique monster ideas, unique events specific to end game zones, and most importantly stuff that can make the prides and reknor feel more like living breathing places would all be great.

So... to get things started.

Some events for Reknor. Dwarves fighting Orcs. Unique Trolls and Orcs for Reknor. Maybe a return of Norgan for dwarven players! Anything to help breath some life into this zone would be great.

Some uniques for each of the prides. These should be themed for the pride but don't have to be orcs. They should only show up in the pride and may come with escorts. An orc commander for instance named "Karl the Competent" could have a few escorts with him. On the other hand a troll champion simply named "The Butcher" would not.

Events for the prides would be great too. Though I haven't learned to code these yet I'm willing to figure it out.

Custom class quests! Keepsake is great. I'd love to see something like this for each class or metaclass. Maybe a bit much to get done before 1.4 but post mid-game class quest ideas (like a return to the rift I'm planning for Chronomancers) can really spice things up and make each play through feel a bit different.

This is just a brainstorming session so there's no bad ideas! One 'bad idea' can lead to a hundred good ones! So let's keep it positive and build off each other's ideas

*update* Putting old threads here with zone ideas, etc.

Brainstorming New Areas For The Game - Davion Fuxa
http://forums.te4.org/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=42013

[EatThisShoe]

I see two broad issues with the end game. Too much of the content is too boring or easy. And There are too many levels in most dungeons. The game is pretty long so boring, long dungeons get more tedious in the mid to late game when characters development is often closer to being finished, and many tier 5 artifacts are filling your inventory with items you will use for the rest of the game. And the fact that so many dungeons focus on orcs also makes it feel more redundant even though each pride has a different theme.

The loss of the Breeding Pits does make the East feel a bit more empty of dungeons, and the constant threat of orc patrols can make it a real slog just to clear something boring like Dark Crypt.

Dark crypt is boring, the ghosts are novel, but not challenging. The final boss is a huge risk unless you abuse his clone mechanic. I often find myself skipping this dungeon entirely.

Underwater Cave is interesting but could probably stand to have some levels removed. I think it's 5-6 floors assuming you do the Naga portion.

Eruan is boring unless you get a vault. I mainly see is as a way to ensure you get ritch stingers for the potion quests and little else. This dungeon could stand to be 2 levels max.

Rak'Shor: Finally a dungeon I like. Those new uniques who spawn here frequently and the transition in map layout make this dungeon Stay Interesting.

Grush'nak: The small rooms with the three rares are interesting and challenging fights. The larger levels are quite boring unless you get a vault. Grush'nak himself is kinda boring too, he's not really hard, just annoying due to him always having that knockback skill that never really made sense for a melee boss. I usually do this pride last because of the small room challenges, but this seems to only exacerbate how weak a melee heavy dungeon feels at the end game.

Vor and Gorbat are both okay, but I wouldn't complain if they had a level removed.

There and Back Again quest line is pretty fun. There is good variety in dungeons, return guardians in the West, etc.

Farportals are kinda annoying. On Nightmare I find myself doing them end game to scrape out some more gear before high peak, but I have to do them over several days because it just feels too slow.


With all those levels I suggested cutting, something has to fill the XP and gear deficit. I would like to see some new dungeons, more optional, and different from current dungeons. I don't really have a lot of thematic ideas, but as a general principle I think there should be more event like dungeons. I always liked things like small rooms that prevent you from constantly teleporting to safety and resting. I liked the timed grave event, though I find it damn near impossible on Nightmare. Also without some sort of terrain gimmick or limitations I don't think you can add much variety without creating new enemies. New enemy types with different strengths and challenges could be interesting too though.

Thematically, again I don't have a lot of ideas. I do think it could be cool if some dungeons cropped up in the west with interesting lore, that could give the sense that the world is still alive and changing even after you have gone east.

I'm starting to have an idea for an optional dungeon concept that might at least change up gameplay a bit. I'm imagining fighting on top of mesas and plataeus, so all the obstacles are open pits and valleys that don't block LoS. The overall layout would be something like Reknor with wide pathways, and gaps between them. Ranged attackers here would be especially dangerous, but their powerful offense could be tempered by low HP and weak escape abilities encouraging more aggressive tactics since you can't corner camp to limit damage from groups. Melee threats would be groups of centaurs with a pack leader. The centaurs wouldn't rush, but would have 200% movement speed (not global so rares wouldn't be overpowered). The captain would be able to buff the centaurs to give them a leap ability that would help them cross gaps, and killing the captain could could make them more kitable. Maybe some form of earth elementals could also shoot beam attacks that created walkways across the gaps. If they were huge they could themselves be the only form of LoS blocking in the map, like the Drolem.

[Alisar]

I'd suggest (or attempt to do myself) varying the pride level maps and making them reflect the area and creatures inside. Right now, most of the pride levels use the "entryway, one big room, unlock exit" map and this can get repetitive. One idea I had that might mix it up a bit is to swap the first level to be an entranceway/leading up to the compound/the area surrounding the pride. Possible ideas:

• Gorbat Pride (The wyrmic one): Long winding pathway through the nearby mountains leading up to the cliffside entrance to the pride. Path surrounded by small caves of nesting wyrmlings and the occasional gorbat hunting group.
• Rak'shor Pride (The corruptor/necro one): Building in the middle of a dead oasis/desert boneyard/elephant graveyard. Nothing that dies here stays dead for too long.
• Grushnak Pride (The warrior one): Hill/forest encampent, filled with recuits, tents, campfires and a few buildings for officers. Scouts patrol the area, keeping an eye out for trouble and calling for reinforcements.
• Vor Pride (The mage one): Not sure. Beachside cliff leading up to tower, maybe?
• Miniboss blocking the enterance to inside the pride would be a nice addition too.

[MarginalMagus]

The exp deficit could also be filled by lightly reducing exp requirements. The game doesn't have to be as long as it is (in terms of no-risk padding like eruan), and playing the end game without exactly the gear you wanted is an important component of roguelike challenge and replayability. Those who wish to grind have farportals, but the rest of the game should strive at all costs to avoid that feel. In addition, making the Guardian Bosses easier to find/not requiring players to clean out every level 1 dungeon would go a long way toward upping the pace of the late game. The prides are great imo, although orc patrols are indeed more inconvenient than interesting, especially at higher difficulty levels where they are a death sentence. The slime tunnels are annoying too--having slimes around to clean out isn't exactly exciting, so if they could be incorporated into the cool boss rush mechanic (i.e. by spawning out of the walls on orb usage) it would be more interesting.

Most importantly -- yes cut some levels! A more varied, harder, and shorter game would be a better one.

[Effigy]

I agree just shaving a couple levels off many of the endgame zones would be an improvement. I've only won a few times and the endgame hasn't actually become "boring" for me yet, but I can see how clearing 5+ levels in the same zone gets tedious. If you can clear the area with the boss, you can certainly clear the areas that came before so I don't think tacking on more levels really adds a challenge. I don't think we'd lose anything from the game experience if the prides were ~3 levels each. You could probably make the same argument for High Peak, although I can see having that be longer than average since it's the last zone.

I tend to enjoy the one-off optional zones since they offer a change of pace from the main storyline. Having more of these could give players the opportunity to get more xp/gear to make up for any levels that get shaved off the required zones. I think it's helpful to have zones that aren't related to the main story because it fleshes out the in-game world more. We already know about orcs and the Spellblaze from the lore and required quests, but there's much more to Maj'Eyal than orcs and the Spellblaze. Things like the Sludgenest, Caldera, Hidden Compound, and Shadow Crypt add flavor to the game.

I like the idea of class-specific events/quests, although it would be a lot of work I imagine. Making them based on metaclass rather than individual classes would probably help. Otherwise, it would probably work to have additional quests related to Angolwen and Zigur so there's only two quest branches to worry about.

[edge2054]

Yeah, the metaclass or class related quests would take awhile to implement. Some could be in the west (via there and back) some in the east. Would depend on the class and what's appropriate. But it would be a long term thing. I always loved that Benli did with Keepsake and wanted to imitate it for Chronomancers.

I'm hearing a lot of shorten the levels and I know this thread is about post-Dreadfell but would making Dreadfell 5 levels be an improvement? Personally speaking I get pretty burnt out after Dreadfell and have abandoned a lot of characters shortly after killing the Master.

[Delmuir]

Cutting a few levels off of numerous areas would do wonders for streamlining the game. As far as I'm concerned, the only "grueling" dungeon that should exist, in terms of length, is the High Peak. Even Dredfell should be shortened to 6 levels or so.

Having said that, random events strike me as very appealing… here are my suggestions:

1. Class-based random events… these would be events that can happen on the map that are solely for a singular class. These could include things like my old "hidden necromancer village" idea or whatnot.

Another idea would be a mastery quest… this would grant you a mastery of + 0.3 to any talent category of your choosing. However, you'd also get -.2 to a random talent class… possibly even the same one.

2. Race-based random events… same, but based solely on race. For these, I would hide them in one of the many Eastern dungeons… they could be like an escort quest that, when complete, opens up on the map an option quest or something like that.

Ideally, these would unlock a final bonus for each race… something innate but not active.

3. Alternate pride dungeons… the biggest thing missing from the prides, to me, is map variance. The maps are very stable and thus, very dull.

4. "Challenge or trade" quests… rather than so many orc patrols, I would suggest "challenge or trade." These would be very difficult random challenges from other adventurer teams.

They would appear in place of an orc patrol such that you think its an orc patrol but when you arrive, its just dead orcs and a team of adventurers. You can chat with them and they offer to trade some gear with you (randomly generated) based on the quality of the item you offer up. You can accept or refuse… OR you can just attack them. If you win, you get the gear but they should be very, very tough… high level elites, etc.

These should be reasonably rare… maybe 1/8 orc patrol encounters.

5. Eruan… more open map but with sandstorms. These sandstorms affect sight-range.

6. Slime Tunnels… alternate bosses. I wish there were 3 possible bosses for each orb type (12 total), and you only had to fight 1 of each type… randomly generated.

Also, if you're killed during the fight… it would re-rest the boss so that you had to trigger it again. Maybe you'd get the same boss but maybe you'd get a different one.

7. Additional arena… there's an arena in Derth and I think there should be one in the East as well. Same basic principle… fight three challengers, although these should be much tricker and set about level 40.

8. Haunted boneyard… this should be a random event quest that may or may not pop up. It should be undead/ghosts exclusively but include undead versions of unusual things like dragons.

Totally optional, like the cultists quest, but tricky.

9. Lore quests… this would be non-fighting quests based on your access to collected lore. You can gain some item, bonus, or even the option to "skip" a dungeon such as with hidden knowledge that lets those at the Sunwall destroy a pride in your stead.

--- Shortening the main dungeons in favor of more smaller ones would allow you to keep the XP growth the same without forcing repetitive grinding.

[Effigy]

Shortening Dreadfell is probably a good idea. Nine levels is quite a long haul, especially since you have another fight immediately afterward. Five levels or thereabouts is probably right.

[malboro_urchin]

Shortening Dreadfell is probably a good idea. Nine levels is quite a long haul, especially since you have another fight immediately afterward. Five levels or thereabouts is probably right.

Agreed, and I like what 5 levels would do to the distribution of unique bosses spread throughout the levels. This way, with the 1st level as an intro of sorts, each level can give a slightly different feel, dictated by its boss, and the idea of most of the levels having a boss, I feel, is thematically appropriate for a dungeon that signals the start of mid-game and the eventual visit to the East

[Delmuir]

One of the things I'd like to see in the Prides is an optional dungeon that consists of only 1 level and 1 super-tough boss who calls orcs to his aid.

[HousePet]

From a previous thread about making the Prides more interesting:

Anyway, I've been thinking about giving each Pride Lair a unique floor effect.

Gorbat Pride would have Natural Aura: Increases mindpower, life regen and equilibrium regen. Decreases resistance penetration.
Vor Pride would have Sorcerous Aura: Increases mana regen and magic stat. Decreases accuracy and stealth.
Grushnak Pride would have Disciplined Aura: Increases all saves and defence. Decreases spellpower.
Rak'Shor Pride would have Sinister Aura: Increases critical chances and damage. Decreases nature and blight resistance.

Some more optional dungeons would be excellent.

I also agree that it becomes rather easy after Dreadfell. We have a bug fix for 1.4 that will likely make late game enemies a little tougher. I also think that we get t5 equipment too early and t2 equipment. The loot spread is a bit bias towards early game. Maybe a left over from when Dreadfell was the end?

And finally, the story is rather linear. There are hundreds of ways of building your character, but only a few paths for finishing the game. None of the options affect the main plot path at all.

[stinkstink]

My biggest problem with the endgame is: I really hate the dungeon town layout. Autoexplore through big boring open areas, then do it again to open doors to a bunch of mostly empty rooms. Removing the doors, having some/all of them start open, and/or making the rooms contain more interesting things would be a big improvement for Vor/Gorbat IMO.

[Zizzo]

Too much of the content is too boring or easy.

I also agree that it becomes rather easy after Dreadfell. We have a bug fix for 1.4 that will likely make late game enemies a little tougher.

*groan* Oh god, am I gonna have to write an addon to undo all the Madness-mode-ifying you guys are about to do to Normal mode?

[HousePet]

Gosh no, updating your addons is purely optional. (and it really should have only a minor effect.)

[edge2054]

We're here to brainstorm ideas. Post-Dreadfell feeling like a slog is a very common complaint I hear and one that I'd like to address.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion on rather or not the game is too easy, to hard, or just right.

I'd appreciate if those opinions were just stated plainly. If you have something to contribute, please do. But please do me the courtesy of not trying to derail this thread and turn it into an argument about rather or not we're madnessfying normal difficulty because that is most certainly not my intent.

Thanks.