Playtesters needed! (1.3 Chronomancers)

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PurpleXVI
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Re: Playtesters needed! (1.3 Chronomancers)

#31 Post by PurpleXVI »

More testing on Rethread: When the second target is very close, like literally adjacent, to the first, it does seem to lose 33~% damage as intended, perhaps the spell is instead subtracting 33% damage per SQUARE jumped, rather than per TARGET jumped?

EDIT: In general I'm getting a lot of weird damage with Rethread, I'm noticing, even on first targets it sometimes only does, for instance, half damage, despite them having no Temporal Resistance, no active skills to lower damage, etc. Are there any new mechanics that could be causing this that I should be aware of? Because as far as I can tell it doesn't seem to be happening with any of my other offensive skills.

EDIT 2: It feels like I start out with less offensive options, and most of the new offenses are tier 3 or 4 in the various skill trees, or in the Spatial Tears tree which is ten levels away at start. Wormhole remains a skill I'm pretty dubious about the utility of, one I've never really found a good use for. Haste seems to have gotten nerfed, at least as far as I'm judging it by description, without really having needed to be. I also feel like I've lost a good few options to do status affecty stuff. I've got nothing that can Confuse any longer, I've got less options for Slowing and I've got nothing that Stuns or does anything like Turn Back The Clock.

Warp Away Mines also have the issue that they warp enemies away... from THEIR location. They warp enemies in a random direction, which could put them on the other side of you, potentially subjecting you to attack from multiple directions when before the fight was monodirectional. Having the warp mines work more like catapult traps(i.e. they just launch enemies in the opposite direction of the direction the enemy was moving), would give them a lot more utility.

Having tested Preserve Pattern, it appears to basically do the Damage Smearing thing, which it feels like it doesn't describe itself as, at all.

Gravity spells feel like they've received a long-overdue boost, their damage finally feels properly competitive, like they can do something other than just move people aorund, now. I'm really happy with this. Not sure how the bonus damage on Gravity Spike is supposed to work, though, is it just a straight-up boost to the damage of all targets in the AoE, based on # of targets in the AoE? Because I get identical targets at identical distance from the center of effect with differences in damage roughly equal to the damage boost, so does it designate someone as "target 1," then target 2 gets one helping worth of damage boost, target 3 gets two helpings, etc.?

Not sure on the usefulness of Contingency. It's a really handy one, at first glance, but then I realize that most of my un-targeted emergency options as a Paradox Mage are instant-use anyway. It would have a lot of use if I picked up that Sun Paladin/Anorithil tree that has Healing Light, Barrier and Providence, all three really useful defensive spells that consume a turn to use, but as a pure Paradox Mage, I doubt the utility a bit. It seems like really my only options are self-centered AoE attacks, Temporal Reprieve or maybe Phase Shift. It could end up as a lifesaver, but it feels like it would be more worth it if Paradox Mages had more defensive/support skills to pack into it.

The recolour of Dimensional Step makes it REALLY look a lot like Rune: Phase Door, this could maybe result in misclicks on the skill bar.

When using Repulsion Blast and Gravity Spike, I sometimes get some odd Game Log chatter formatted as "Kinetic X Y Z" where X, Y and Z are numbers.

Image

Not sure if it's meant to tell me anything or whether it's just some stuff for testing or that needs trimming.

Spatial Fragments behaves oddly, sometimes it seems to hit enemies with only one fragment, sometimes it hits them with one fragment in one turn, then one in the next, occasionally it hits them with all three fragments at once. I'm not able to regularly reproduce this particular bug, though.

tl;dr, overall positive, but could use a few more offensive choices(if anything, more, bigger offensive skills would make paradox management more difficult and anomalies more of a fact of life than something quite so easily avoided), could use more options to cause status effects, still not sure why Wormhole is even a skill, the bugs are relatively minor.
Last edited by PurpleXVI on Sat Jan 03, 2015 2:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Sheila
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Re: Playtesters needed! (1.3 Chronomancers)

#32 Post by Sheila »

PurpleXVI wrote:More testing on Rethread: When the second target is very close, like literally adjacent, to the first, it does seem to lose 33~% damage as intended, perhaps the spell is instead subtracting 33% damage per SQUARE jumped, rather than per TARGET jumped?

EDIT: In general I'm getting a lot of weird damage with Rethread, I'm noticing, even on first targets it sometimes only does, for instance, half damage, despite them having no Temporal Resistance, no active skills to lower damage, etc. Are there any new mechanics that could be causing this that I should be aware of? Because as far as I can tell it doesn't seem to be happening with any of my other offensive skills.
Yeah there's definitely something weird going on with it, it's very unstable. I think it's gonna get touched up again.
"As dying is one of the leading causes of death, you should avoid dying." -rekenner

"I'll bond with a cactus until my buttcheeks touch the sand before I play nethack again" -Gagarin

Sheila
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Re: Playtesters needed! (1.3 Chronomancers)

#33 Post by Sheila »

Suggestion: Add fatigue modifier to spacetime tuning's information tooltip, I think it's kind of a big deal to know how much fatigue is affecting anomaly chance.
"As dying is one of the leading causes of death, you should avoid dying." -rekenner

"I'll bond with a cactus until my buttcheeks touch the sand before I play nethack again" -Gagarin

edge2054
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Re: Playtesters needed! (1.3 Chronomancers)

#34 Post by edge2054 »

Thanks for all the playtesting!

Sorry I'm not going to respond to everyone directly but I've read everyone's posts and will keep referring to this thread as I make adjustments.

Rethread is getting a balance pass. I think I'll set it to 3 targets (no scaling) and drop the damage penalty on jump.
Sheila wrote:was fighting the ritch hivemoter and this happened a few times when using gravity spike, might've been confused at the time

Image
Tornado is missing an upvalue. I couldn't see what it was offhand so I'll make a bug report for it.

PurpleXVI
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Re: Playtesters needed! (1.3 Chronomancers)

#35 Post by PurpleXVI »

Spacetime Weaving is 50% skills for modifying teleports(Dimensional Shift, Phase Pulse), yet Paradox Mages have a grand total of one controlled teleport(Dimensional Step), one pseudo-teleport(Wormhole, Phase Pulse and Dimensional Shift trigger on that, I'm not actually sure?) and one uncontrolled teleport(Phase Shift). It feels like more actual teleport skills for Paradox Mages would make that tree a lot more worth it. Phase Pulse also does really pitiful damage, I'd suggest it either needs a damage boost or some sort of other effect(Confusion, Stunning or whatever) for enemies hit by it.

Dimensional Anchor isn't bad, but, the number of enemies who actually teleport in the game with any regularity is pretty much limited to Orc Mages. I could see it perhaps being a decent combo with Spatial Tether, forcing the target to constantly take damage, rather than being teleported back, or maybe dropping it on top of Wormholes to actually make them damage traps rather than teleport traps, but it ultimately seems a bit roundabout. Especially since it's a relatively small field, which would limit its combo-potential with Spatial Tether, and that you'd need a nice, narrow corridor and a long parade of monsters to make it a worthwhile combo with Wormhole, but in much of the latter half of the game, narrow corridors are at a premium.

Fractured Space is pretty nice, but feels a bit limited considering that the number of actual sources of Warp damage are the three other spells in Spatial Tearing, Warp Mines and Phase Pulse, unless there are other, unlabelled, sources of Warp Damage. Maybe just have it trigger on plain old Temporal damage instead?

Mind, I'm still on my first 1.3 Paradox Mage, so my opinions may change, these are just my feelings s ofar.

PurpleXVI
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Re: Playtesters needed! (1.3 Chronomancers)

#36 Post by PurpleXVI »

Image

Length 3 Discontinuity becomes a 1-square Discontinuity when cast in a diagonal direction.

EDIT: I hate to be a constant font of what seems like negativity, I really am enjoying a lot of the heart and idea of these fixes, but I have one last thing that I'd like to address for the moment: the current damage scaling on some of the new skills. Gravity spells, for instance, remain relatively competitive in damage at one point invested, but other skills, like Temporal Bolt, quickly become hopelessly ineffective if they've only got one point invested.

For a comparison, with one point invested(41 Spellpower, 250 Paradox), Discontinuity deals, rounded up, about 20 points of damage/turn while, with one point invested, Gravity Well hands out 30 points/turn(rounded down), with a larger AoE and a slowing effect that keeps enemies in the hurting for longer.

Gravity Spike does 120 damage with a generous area of effect(before accounting for potential bonus damage, which tends to be remarkably generous) at the same 1 point, 41 spellpower, 250 paradox, while Spatial Fragments, at 3 points, 41 spellpower, 250 Paradox, can do about 160 damage to one target. And I'll note that of the two, Gravity Spike is the one that feels like it's keeping itself relevant. In general the new skills feel like they need a bit of a boost in some way.

I'm guessing that the anything labelled with (Warp) damage is supposed to rely on Fractured Space to really come into its own, but I confess I'm not entirely sure it'll make the difference and, well... it seems to their detriment that the special Fractures feature fires off at six charges no matter what. I'd much rather keep the six charges so I can have a chance of handing out status effects and keep a damage boost that my (Warp) damage skills, frankly, really need. While I only sometimes benefit from piercing enemies with Fragments, blocking a corridor with Discontinuity or need to tear off Sustains with Sphere of Destruction.

At the risk of seeming ungrateful, I'd suggest that those three skills always have those advantages, and that Fractured Space get reworked as something else. Possibly a single skill with the potential to inflict that delightful mixture of status effects that it otherwise gives (Warp) damage skills a chance to do.

PurpleXVI
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Re: Playtesters needed! (1.3 Chronomancers)

#37 Post by PurpleXVI »

Image

Got another trap-related bug, but this one wasn't related to me using any Paradox Mage skills, just to, apparently, walking over one, so I'd say it's possible that something about 1.3 is just bugging traps in general, and that it's not Paradox Mages that are at fault in particular. Just thought it'd be worth mentioning before anyone got all frustrated trying to figure out why Paradox Mages were breaking traps.

EDIT: Seems like every single trap on L3 of Nur gives me an error message, in fact, without having an effect.

PurpleXVI
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Re: Playtesters needed! (1.3 Chronomancers)

#38 Post by PurpleXVI »

Regarding what I posted earlier about Spatial Fragments sometimes not appearing to fire the "right" number of projectiles, I think I've found out why that seems to not be the case at times. As far as I can tell, the two first projectiles tend to get hurled off on the same tick, basically "instantly," while the third is delayed and is, at any decent range, in mid-air during the next tick. And of course, sometimes, an enemy will move and dodge the mid-air third projectile before the following tick ends.

http://i.imgur.com/RnXjELH.jpg (this should illustrate the issue. As you can see by the sidebar, I've got two Fractures charges, from the two Fragments that already landed their hits, yet there's still one in mid-air)

This minor irregularity adds another problem for the Spacial Tearing tree since, at least as I read it, Spatial Fragments is supposed to be your low-damage, fast-firing skill for building up Spatial Fractures charges fast, but that falls apart a bit if the projectiles are unreliable hitters.

Having worked my way up to Sphere of Destruction, I'd also note that it doesn't display AoE when targeting it, which isn't really a huge issue, but a bit annoying.

PurpleXVI
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Re: Playtesters needed! (1.3 Chronomancers)

#39 Post by PurpleXVI »

Trying out Temporal Wardens now, what I'm noticing right away is that Temporal Wardens seem more suited than ever to mixing a bow in one setup with dual wielding in another setup, but have now lost their free weapon switching talent. I get free switches on skill uses... but that still doesn't let me quick-switch to, say, shoot or make a normal attack.

Also, I'm starting to notice that neither TW's or Paradox Mages have any sort of self-healing or shielding, barely even any damage smearing. This makes them really dependent on either good inscription drops or playing a Skeleton for the free shielding skill, or maybe a lucky Anorithil escort for that one super-awesome Generic talent tree(but at 0.8 and with nice generics and unlockable categories of their own, it's arguable how much of an option that really is).

If nothing else, they could benefit from having more teleport spells or speed-up spells of some sort, to get them out of trouble, if the intent is to keep them fragile when actually IN trouble.

Outside of that, though, enjoying Temporal Wardens so far, they seem more balanced, at least at first, and in need of less adjusting, than Paradox Mages.

EDIT: Just realized I've got no access to Archery Mastery for a boosted reload rate, I've also lost reliable blinding, crippling, pinning and stunning from the Archery Prowess tree. The loss of those condition-causing abilities is going to sting, because it feels like I've mostly just been upgraded in raw damage to make up for it. I've also complained about the new Speed Control tree before, but bears repeating since it feels like even more of a loss to the Temporal Warden than to the Paradox Mage. What always kept me alive as a TW used to be excellent kiting options, the nerfing of Haste and Celerity takes a chunk out of that.

EDIT2: Comments on Bow Threading and Blade Threading, firstly, get rid of Weapon Folding and Impact. They have completely negligible Paradox costs, so there's no doubt about whether to put them up, they might as well just be passive skills or a single boost that always exists for Temporal Wardens, because no player is ever going to not have them up at all times. Second, both are really very boring generic +damage boosts aside from the negligible Daze percentage. Threaded Arrow is bad, why does it even reduce Paradox? Paradox is a huge irrelevancy now that Backfires and Failures aren't a threat, keeping Paradox low is a lot less important at this point. Make it do something useful or interesting besides +damage, maybe have it partially reload your quiver, rather than simply firing without an ammo cost, that'd help alleviate the loss of Archery Mastery. Singularity Arrow is fine, it has an effect beyond +damage and it has crowd control implications, but it has a targeting bug, when targeted, the cursor implies that it will go through targets and detonate on the other side of them, which isn't true, it impacts the first target it hits and detonates there. Not sure whether functionality or the cursor need fixing. Warp Blade is fine, though it'd be nice to know what the odds were that it "might" confuse, stun, blind or pin, and whether it "might" trigger more than one of those conditions, or whether it always triggers one, but which is the random factor, etc. Braided Blade and Temporal Assault are alright.

Additionally, it feels like Temporal Wardens are a lot more forced to be using both Dual Wielding and bows, rather than, as before, having the option to choose one or the other(I frankly never felt I had the points to focus on both...). I can't really pin down why it feels this way, but it may be because if I only pick both of them, I'm down to literally only having five active attack skills(not counting skills from Temporal Hounds or Time Travel), and two of those pretty much purely related to playing a hybrid build, where previously I'd have had seven as an archer(again, counting only skills relevant to my weapons, not spells).

EDIT 2: It feels a bit irrelevant that my arrows ignore my Temporal Hounds when 1/3rd of my Arrow skills will just nuke them all to Temporal Giblets anyway. Maybe give them a general immunity to friendly damage or something instead, because I've got a decent set of heavy-hitting AoE attacks(Singularity Arrow, Echoes from the Past, Trim Threads, Braided Blade, most attacks I make if I pick up Threaded Combat and Frayed Threads).

I'm also a bit confused by Breach under Temporal Guardian. I mean, sure, nice extra damage and all, and I'm always up for weakening enemy defenses. But I've got literally one skill that can inflict any of those conditions it damages enemy resistance to, and that's Warp Blade. Though I'll note that it does name three of the four conditions I could inflict with the Archery Prowess tree.

edge2054
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Re: Playtesters needed! (1.3 Chronomancers)

#40 Post by edge2054 »

Doctornull is helping out with some of the coding and he thought of a good way to get more status effects in for TWs.

Speed Control has been retooled quite a bit and is pushed into my local branch...

http://git.net-core.org/edge2054/t-engine4

More changes are coming and I'm still reading feedback posted here and taking things into consideration.

PurpleXVI
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Re: Playtesters needed! (1.3 Chronomancers)

#41 Post by PurpleXVI »

Awesome, I'll have less time to do testing this week as the holidays are over, but I'll definitely be up for trying out the new changes during the week. And I'm sorry if I seem a bit harsh and discouraging, I really don't mean to come off that way, there are some really good ideas and potential in the changes, and, in spite of my complaints, I'm generally having more fun with the Temporal Warden and Paradox Mage than I was pre-1.3.

EDIT: As a total newbie at this sort of stuff, though, if I grab the newest version you've pushed, will I have to start over with a given TW or PM I've made? Not that I'm averse to it, it'll just mean slightly slower testing of top-of-tree skills and scaling unless I start debug-moding myself some levels and points.

edge2054
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Re: Playtesters needed! (1.3 Chronomancers)

#42 Post by edge2054 »

Yeah, you'd probably have to restart.

Once things are better sorted I'll send Darkgod a merge request that will include all talent changes. While you guys playtest that I'll go through the NPC and equipment files to get everything up to date. Then it will be one more branch for final balance, polish, and bug fixes. Once the first branch is pushed saves should be relatively stable.

Parcae2
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Re: Playtesters needed! (1.3 Chronomancers)

#43 Post by Parcae2 »

Also, I'm starting to notice that neither TW's or Paradox Mages have any sort of self-healing or shielding, barely even any damage smearing. This makes them really dependent on either good inscription drops or playing a Skeleton for the free shielding skill, or maybe a lucky Anorithil escort for that one super-awesome Generic talent tree(but at 0.8 and with nice generics and unlockable categories of their own, it's arguable how much of an option that really is).
They do, however, have a ton of abilities that reduce incoming damage. If that's not shielding, I don't know what is.

Candesce
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Re: Playtesters needed! (1.3 Chronomancers)

#44 Post by Candesce »

PurpleXVI wrote:They have completely negligible Paradox costs, so there's no doubt about whether to put them up, they might as well just be passive skills or a single boost that always exists for Temporal Wardens, because no player is ever going to not have them up at all times.
Taken a Warden up against the Weirdling Beast yet?

Even a zero-cost sustain that you'd always want on isn't the same as a passive, and there are circumstances it'll matter.

And Impact and Weapon Folding aren't instant cast, and have a cooldown.

overgoat
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Re: Playtesters needed! (1.3 Chronomancers)

#45 Post by overgoat »

Candesce wrote: Taken a Warden up against the Weirdling Beast yet?

Even a zero-cost sustain that you'd always want on isn't the same as a passive, and there are circumstances it'll matter.

And Impact and Weapon Folding aren't instant cast, and have a cooldown.
I think the Paradox Mage holds up quite well in most situations (maybe too well), but I did find my Temporal Warden got quite squishy in some situations with the Weirdling Beast being a great example.

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