Purple,
I'm totally game to help with design and balance but no coding for me. Also, 0player is attempting to code an Add-on that Red linked to and if you wanted to help… that'd be awesome.
What we could do is offer up a second Necromancer build (as I like your ideas) with maybe some related crossover skills… I'd be happy to help with that.
Necromancer Summons Rework
Moderator: Moderator
Re: Necromancer Summons Rework
Alright, are there any good guides for getting started on your own coding? Or is the easiest way just to crack open the game files and see how it's already done?
Re: Necromancer Summons Rework
Cracking open someone elses addon is the easiest way.
My feedback meter decays into coding. Give me feedback and I make mods.
Re: Necromancer Summons Rework
Purple, summoning minions, normal and advanced minions at least, is already a targetable area spell: a cone projected from yourself out to the edge of your aura. Yes, one minion could pop up right in front of you, but the rest would be thrown forward, depending on how many you can summon at once and how large your aura is.
I like the idea of making spells that pass through or hurt your minions take a bonus from doing so. I don't think the bone golem ideas we're talking about are overly micromanagement, though. Having two characters to equip is something that's currently only done with the Alchemist, and the Alchemist's golem has a LOT more customization going into it. Two dedicated talent trees, plus four more talent trees with at least one skill dedicated to it, all on the player, plus two talent trees and stats for the golem, plus sharing most normal equipment with the golem. This would, on the other hand, be one dedicated talent, alone, on the player plus a few talent trees on the golem (admitedly, probably more than the alchemist's golem gets), and probably no more than 6 item slots for what would be bone-golem-only items.
But yeah, pointing out the micromanagement it does produce, we could maybe reduce it some. Maybe go back to only equipment (and talents granted directly from it) or only talent trees (and only a small number at that). I think the equipment side would be easier, completely eliminating the level-up screen for the golem (stat points being auto-assigned).
As for having sustains that control what undead you summon, though, that's an idea I've played around with before. Problem is, it's a very messy idea. Even if you want to limit it to just roles, you've still got melee damage dealer, tank, archer, mage, and disabler/debuffer. That's five different roles you need to define, and you still haven't defined whether these are liches, skeletons, ghouls, vampires, wights, specters, etc. If you wanted to define race, that's a whole second set of sustains.
I kind of like the idea of advanced undead being crafted from lesser undead, but then I kind of think we need to change the advanced undead into types that are more clearly 'constructed'. Things like the bone golem, maybe an abomination, some kind of shade/specter that's a combination of souls fused together, etc. Making a vampire out of several skeletons doesn't make much sense, after all.
So, maybe restrict the basic undead to the more tank/physical disabler/melee damage dealer types, and then make an advanced undead for each major build type. But then there's still the issue of how to process summoning them. Do you want a separate skill to create each different type of advanced undead? Do you want a dialogue box? Make it random (I'm against this idea, personally)? And would it act on all your undead minions in your aura (turn 8 lesser undead into 4 greater undead), or randomly select them, or would you select them? Most of all, I want to avoid a clunky, messy system that involves a host of talents or sub-menus.
I like the idea of making spells that pass through or hurt your minions take a bonus from doing so. I don't think the bone golem ideas we're talking about are overly micromanagement, though. Having two characters to equip is something that's currently only done with the Alchemist, and the Alchemist's golem has a LOT more customization going into it. Two dedicated talent trees, plus four more talent trees with at least one skill dedicated to it, all on the player, plus two talent trees and stats for the golem, plus sharing most normal equipment with the golem. This would, on the other hand, be one dedicated talent, alone, on the player plus a few talent trees on the golem (admitedly, probably more than the alchemist's golem gets), and probably no more than 6 item slots for what would be bone-golem-only items.
But yeah, pointing out the micromanagement it does produce, we could maybe reduce it some. Maybe go back to only equipment (and talents granted directly from it) or only talent trees (and only a small number at that). I think the equipment side would be easier, completely eliminating the level-up screen for the golem (stat points being auto-assigned).
As for having sustains that control what undead you summon, though, that's an idea I've played around with before. Problem is, it's a very messy idea. Even if you want to limit it to just roles, you've still got melee damage dealer, tank, archer, mage, and disabler/debuffer. That's five different roles you need to define, and you still haven't defined whether these are liches, skeletons, ghouls, vampires, wights, specters, etc. If you wanted to define race, that's a whole second set of sustains.
I kind of like the idea of advanced undead being crafted from lesser undead, but then I kind of think we need to change the advanced undead into types that are more clearly 'constructed'. Things like the bone golem, maybe an abomination, some kind of shade/specter that's a combination of souls fused together, etc. Making a vampire out of several skeletons doesn't make much sense, after all.
So, maybe restrict the basic undead to the more tank/physical disabler/melee damage dealer types, and then make an advanced undead for each major build type. But then there's still the issue of how to process summoning them. Do you want a separate skill to create each different type of advanced undead? Do you want a dialogue box? Make it random (I'm against this idea, personally)? And would it act on all your undead minions in your aura (turn 8 lesser undead into 4 greater undead), or randomly select them, or would you select them? Most of all, I want to avoid a clunky, messy system that involves a host of talents or sub-menus.
Re: Necromancer Summons Rework
But you don't want to define that, because minions are meant to be disposable. So you don't say "melee damage, tank, archer, mage, disabler/debuffer." You say: "Melee" or "Ranged." As relatively-disposeable meat, or rather bone, shields, it doesn't matter if it's a blasty skeleton mage or a skeleton archer, ranged is what matters. It doesn't matter if it's a ghoul or a skeleton warrior, what matters is that it rushes in and ties someone up.Planetus wrote:
As for having sustains that control what undead you summon, though, that's an idea I've played around with before. Problem is, it's a very messy idea. Even if you want to limit it to just roles, you've still got melee damage dealer, tank, archer, mage, and disabler/debuffer. That's five different roles you need to define, and you still haven't defined whether these are liches, skeletons, ghouls, vampires, wights, specters, etc. If you wanted to define race, that's a whole second set of sustains.
For "advanced" summons, we give it three options, Vampire, Banshee/Dread and Bone Giant, for whether you want a caster buddy, a non-corporeal assist or a big shield. This is basically what I suggested all along.
Implementation would simply be two, mutually-exclusive sustains for the "generate minor undead"-option and three active skills for the "generate major undead"-option.
Re: Necromancer Summons Rework
See, I still have a problem with that. Because 'disposable' doesn't mean 'random', nor does it mean 'worthless'. 'Disposable' means easy to replace. The current bone golem is perfectly disposable, and is probably treated as such by just about every necromancer character in the game. It's not at all random, though. It's not just a shield, either.
The big problem I think I see with your idea is that it makes the minions nothing but bone shields. That means a minion-focused build isn't really viable. The best minions can be is just cannon fodder while your necromancer does the bulk of the killing. I would like a minion-based necromancer to be a viable build on it's own. Not necessarily letting the minions do ALL the killing, but focusing development on the minions with fewer, party-friendly, attack spells.
Toward that end, I would like some degree of control over at least SOMETHING that I summon, while at the same that build should be at least functional pretty early in the game. i.e. before level 10.
The big problem I think I see with your idea is that it makes the minions nothing but bone shields. That means a minion-focused build isn't really viable. The best minions can be is just cannon fodder while your necromancer does the bulk of the killing. I would like a minion-based necromancer to be a viable build on it's own. Not necessarily letting the minions do ALL the killing, but focusing development on the minions with fewer, party-friendly, attack spells.
Toward that end, I would like some degree of control over at least SOMETHING that I summon, while at the same that build should be at least functional pretty early in the game. i.e. before level 10.
Re: Necromancer Summons Rework
I don't really feel like minion-based necromancers are viable as it is, and even if you make one work, it's just so insufferably dull, because you've got a grand total of four skills you can use without wrecking your own minions faster than the enemy does.
So the idea was for a setup that made the attacks and the minions synergize, you can blast through your own minions, use them as bombs, etc. without worrying about it because they don't consume a limited resource to replace, and attacks that blow through them get boosted in some sense, so it's not a pure expenditure, you get something back.
So the idea was for a setup that made the attacks and the minions synergize, you can blast through your own minions, use them as bombs, etc. without worrying about it because they don't consume a limited resource to replace, and attacks that blow through them get boosted in some sense, so it's not a pure expenditure, you get something back.
Re: Necromancer Summons Rework
What if Purple's sustains and actives were combined with a buff category for minions? (And possibly upping the precision on the sustains or having some 0 CD instant actives for switching precisely what kind of minions you want summoned.) The sustain means you always have your little horde of abominations against life itself, and the various buff abilities will let you actually use minions to kill rather than just distract.
If the first ability on the Minion tree is the summons, then the second could be a life/defense booster, to make any given minion survive their encounter, the third a basic offensive boost to make them lethal, and the last ability could give a different buff depending on what it targeted, along with a general stat boost. A Ghoul might get powerful diseased attacks and extra defenses, a Skeleton might get Bone Shield and a one-off resurrection along with global speed boost, etc.
The Advanced Minions tree could be similarly set up. The first ability gives Bone Giants at 1, Dreads/Wraiths at 3, and Vampires/Liches at 5, and each later ability would be a buff. The difference is that the Advanced Minions buffs would be less powerful, but apply to all your minions inside your Necrotic Aura.
If done correctly, this should make the early game feasible for Minionmancers because the default minions are okay that early on, and you can buff single minions when you need a boost. For the late game, you have your powerful undead for specific use, but can also temporarily buff your entire army in order to make all your minions a threat.
If the first ability on the Minion tree is the summons, then the second could be a life/defense booster, to make any given minion survive their encounter, the third a basic offensive boost to make them lethal, and the last ability could give a different buff depending on what it targeted, along with a general stat boost. A Ghoul might get powerful diseased attacks and extra defenses, a Skeleton might get Bone Shield and a one-off resurrection along with global speed boost, etc.
The Advanced Minions tree could be similarly set up. The first ability gives Bone Giants at 1, Dreads/Wraiths at 3, and Vampires/Liches at 5, and each later ability would be a buff. The difference is that the Advanced Minions buffs would be less powerful, but apply to all your minions inside your Necrotic Aura.
If done correctly, this should make the early game feasible for Minionmancers because the default minions are okay that early on, and you can buff single minions when you need a boost. For the late game, you have your powerful undead for specific use, but can also temporarily buff your entire army in order to make all your minions a threat.
I'm not crying. I'm offering a sacrifice to DarkGod in hopes he'll show favor to me.
It hasn't worked yet.
It hasn't worked yet.
Re: Necromancer Summons Rework
Because it should be a fun class and it isn't. It's an extremely irritating and boring class (in my opinion).Red wrote: Oh, and vanilla Necromancers still exist. Why are people so obsessed over these guys?
Lichform is a cool, unique idea but it sucks.
Summoner/Archmage hybrid concept seems super fun but is actually super cumbersome and demands tedious micromanagement.
It has a cool theme but the talents are silly (Curse of the Meek anyone?) or actively bad (Undeath Link).
It ought to be a fun class but it's not and honestly, I find it utterly baffling given how well-designed some of the classes are like Doomed, Cursed, Archmages, et al. Why this particular class has to continue to suck is baffling to me and I set out to address it accordingly.
And I know, lots of people are about to say "it doesn't suck" or "it's one of the best classes in the game" but they're wrong. It sucks and there are a million solutions… some of which only require a little tweak and some of which require a full rebuild.
I already addressed the tweak last year, to little avail, and now I figured I'd go for something bigger and that garnered some attention.
I think this is the same reason that the Anorithil have been getting some attention of late… good, but could have been so much better.
Re: Necromancer Summons Rework
I like Red's suggestion of buffs, especially if the single-target buffs of the basic tree are also usable on single advanced undead, but I'd still like to suggest the advanced-summoning skill make sense. Either construct a powerful undead from the corpses of simple undead and imbue it with a soul/fusion of souls, thus the advanced undead are all themed as some fusion, or the advanced undead summons just summons one undead out of nowhere, like a single-target simple-undead-summons.
To the theme of constructed undead, I'd like to suggest the following:
Abomination: a hulking mass of various necrotic body parts, all sewn together and animated by file magic. It moves with unexpected swiftness and strikes with powerful blows, and feasts on the corpses it kills. It does a lot of melee-physical damage, probably high crit rate, armor penetration, etc. and either has very high HP regen or, preferably, get's HP regen for every kill (maybe based on the Unnatural Body talent, but permanently with 100 hate, or maybe give it other Cursed talents with a natural hate regen rate). However it has low armor, low defense, and is vulnerable to many status effects (pin, daze, stun, probably not confusion or fear, bleed, disease, maybe poison, maybe blind, etc).
Bone Golem: a massive, misshaped skeletal figure constructed of bones from various creatures. Not only is it's skeleton made of these bones, but also armor over the whole structure. All of it is etched with runes of power and thrumming with arcane force. Themed after the current Runed bone golem (and the way I use them), this creature is a heavily armored, elementally resistant, mobile spell tower, probably with three (party friendly) beam spells and, later on, with 3 similarly elemented blast spells or cone spells. Not sure if these should be the typical fire/lightning/arcane beams of the Archmage, or if we should theme them on necromantic elements (darkness/cold/arcane). However, it is vulnerable to spell disruption, manaclash, silence, and it's pretty slow (not sure if that would be movement speed, with it teleporting back into your necrotic radius if no enemies are visible, or spell speed, or what).
Legion (or some similar name for a horrifying amalgam of tortured souls): an ethereal mass of tortured souls, fused together by dark magics and bound to the will of a necromancer. This creature can pass through walls, has permanent invisibility, is immune to almost all physical and mental status effects, highly resistant to most damage, and can attack with a wide variety of status effects of it's own. Probably has gloom, curses and hexes, maybe attacks that can stun, disarm, etc. However, it is permanently out of phase with reality, reducing all damage it deals by 70% (ala the Archmage invisibility spell, I hope that doesn't effect status effects at all). It is also particularly weak to arcane damage, and is vulnerable to manaclash, silence, and spell disruption.
I'm also thinking that the advanced undead could each count as 2 against the total number of undead you can have at a time, but somewhere (probably in the advanced tree) there's a talent that increases the max number of undead you can have, probably by one per talent point. So a basic necromancer can have 5 simple, or 1 simple and 2 advance, (or anywhere between) undead, and a minion-specialized necromancer can have an army of 10 simple undead, or a powerful party of 5 advanced undead, (or anywhere between).
Oooh, just remembered an undead that we HAVE to include in the future. Maybe not as an advanced minion, maybe as a powerful unique, but it does seem to sort of fit the theme of a constructed minion: Nuckelavee.
To the theme of constructed undead, I'd like to suggest the following:
Abomination: a hulking mass of various necrotic body parts, all sewn together and animated by file magic. It moves with unexpected swiftness and strikes with powerful blows, and feasts on the corpses it kills. It does a lot of melee-physical damage, probably high crit rate, armor penetration, etc. and either has very high HP regen or, preferably, get's HP regen for every kill (maybe based on the Unnatural Body talent, but permanently with 100 hate, or maybe give it other Cursed talents with a natural hate regen rate). However it has low armor, low defense, and is vulnerable to many status effects (pin, daze, stun, probably not confusion or fear, bleed, disease, maybe poison, maybe blind, etc).
Bone Golem: a massive, misshaped skeletal figure constructed of bones from various creatures. Not only is it's skeleton made of these bones, but also armor over the whole structure. All of it is etched with runes of power and thrumming with arcane force. Themed after the current Runed bone golem (and the way I use them), this creature is a heavily armored, elementally resistant, mobile spell tower, probably with three (party friendly) beam spells and, later on, with 3 similarly elemented blast spells or cone spells. Not sure if these should be the typical fire/lightning/arcane beams of the Archmage, or if we should theme them on necromantic elements (darkness/cold/arcane). However, it is vulnerable to spell disruption, manaclash, silence, and it's pretty slow (not sure if that would be movement speed, with it teleporting back into your necrotic radius if no enemies are visible, or spell speed, or what).
Legion (or some similar name for a horrifying amalgam of tortured souls): an ethereal mass of tortured souls, fused together by dark magics and bound to the will of a necromancer. This creature can pass through walls, has permanent invisibility, is immune to almost all physical and mental status effects, highly resistant to most damage, and can attack with a wide variety of status effects of it's own. Probably has gloom, curses and hexes, maybe attacks that can stun, disarm, etc. However, it is permanently out of phase with reality, reducing all damage it deals by 70% (ala the Archmage invisibility spell, I hope that doesn't effect status effects at all). It is also particularly weak to arcane damage, and is vulnerable to manaclash, silence, and spell disruption.
I'm also thinking that the advanced undead could each count as 2 against the total number of undead you can have at a time, but somewhere (probably in the advanced tree) there's a talent that increases the max number of undead you can have, probably by one per talent point. So a basic necromancer can have 5 simple, or 1 simple and 2 advance, (or anywhere between) undead, and a minion-specialized necromancer can have an army of 10 simple undead, or a powerful party of 5 advanced undead, (or anywhere between).
Oooh, just remembered an undead that we HAVE to include in the future. Maybe not as an advanced minion, maybe as a powerful unique, but it does seem to sort of fit the theme of a constructed minion: Nuckelavee.
Last edited by Planetus on Mon Jan 05, 2015 9:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Necromancer Summons Rework
Planetus…
In my add-on concept, we used the fusion idea for the Blood Golem minion… it has some base skills and then gains two addition based on whatever minions are used to make it… I think it's a snazzy idea.
We did the same thing with the 2 minion count and increased minion count… take a look at our add-on concept as it might have some ideas worth looking at if you're going to try and do this.
I love (!) the Legion idea. I love it so much that I think I might try and steal it (if it's okay with you) for the add-on that 0player is coding. It's a fantastic idea. In fact, it could be put at the end of the Animus tree instead of EotD (just disperse the relevant bonuses out as crit bonuses or whatever)… or not. Perhaps the Necromancer could have a ghost tree that summons ghosts and dreads, etc.
Also, the Nukelavee is pretty cool.
In my add-on concept, we used the fusion idea for the Blood Golem minion… it has some base skills and then gains two addition based on whatever minions are used to make it… I think it's a snazzy idea.
We did the same thing with the 2 minion count and increased minion count… take a look at our add-on concept as it might have some ideas worth looking at if you're going to try and do this.
I love (!) the Legion idea. I love it so much that I think I might try and steal it (if it's okay with you) for the add-on that 0player is coding. It's a fantastic idea. In fact, it could be put at the end of the Animus tree instead of EotD (just disperse the relevant bonuses out as crit bonuses or whatever)… or not. Perhaps the Necromancer could have a ghost tree that summons ghosts and dreads, etc.
Also, the Nukelavee is pretty cool.
Re: Necromancer Summons Rework
What if you broke down the minions into three categories with a super minion at the end, like this:
Skeletons:
1. Create skeletons
2. Grasping Claws… AoE spell either from the concept I worked on or Housepet's (from whom I stole the basic idea from).
3.
4. Bone Giant… combines 3 skeletons.
Flesh:
1. Raise Undead… this creates ghouls and similar
2.
3.
4. Nukelavee… advanced minion that combines 3 from Raise Undead skill.
Ghosts: This deals with spirits and souls
1. Summon Ghosts… this is dreads and other non-corporeal creatures.
2. Consume Soul...
3. Animus Hoarder…
4. Legion… monstrous amalgamation of 3 ghosts.
Then you could have a minion master category that includes things like:
1. Undeath Link
2. Sacrifice… a different ability for whatever greater minion you sacrifice.
3. Aura Master/Dark Empathy… I think that's a good combination.
4. Surge of Undeath.
If you did it this way, a player could have a pure minion build but could also only use 1 or 2 of the categories.
Then, if you wanted to get fancy, you could offer a category only available in Lichform that offers the Lich summon.
Skeletons:
1. Create skeletons
2. Grasping Claws… AoE spell either from the concept I worked on or Housepet's (from whom I stole the basic idea from).
3.
4. Bone Giant… combines 3 skeletons.
Flesh:
1. Raise Undead… this creates ghouls and similar
2.
3.
4. Nukelavee… advanced minion that combines 3 from Raise Undead skill.
Ghosts: This deals with spirits and souls
1. Summon Ghosts… this is dreads and other non-corporeal creatures.
2. Consume Soul...
3. Animus Hoarder…
4. Legion… monstrous amalgamation of 3 ghosts.
Then you could have a minion master category that includes things like:
1. Undeath Link
2. Sacrifice… a different ability for whatever greater minion you sacrifice.
3. Aura Master/Dark Empathy… I think that's a good combination.
4. Surge of Undeath.
If you did it this way, a player could have a pure minion build but could also only use 1 or 2 of the categories.
Then, if you wanted to get fancy, you could offer a category only available in Lichform that offers the Lich summon.
Last edited by Delmuir on Mon Jan 05, 2015 1:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Necromancer Summons Rework
Legion seems... Well, quite frankly, overpowered. Status debuffs are one hell of a lot more important than damage when you have 10 other minions to handle that (or 6 others and have 3 Legions keeping everything on permenant everything debuff related), and the few vulnerabilities simply do not make up for all its strengths. Stuns, disarms, dazes, extended CDs, confusion, not to mention potential spellshock and brainshock (from Gloom effects) on a vessel that is invisible and highly resistant to most everything? Considering just about nothing in the game is going to be immune to all those debiliating effects, it could do no damage whatsoever and still be too powerful.
Abomination and the modified Bone Golem sound cool, though.
Abomination and the modified Bone Golem sound cool, though.
I'm not crying. I'm offering a sacrifice to DarkGod in hopes he'll show favor to me.
It hasn't worked yet.
It hasn't worked yet.
Re: Necromancer Summons Rework
It is overpowered but it's a cool concept. I'm sure it can be toned down.Red wrote:Legion seems... Well, quite frankly, overpowered... it could do no damage whatsoever and still be too powerful.
As for the Abomination, why not just make it the Nukelavee? It's certainly a great visual.
Update: I made a quick re-work to try and incorporate some of these ideas and I stuck it at the end of my thread on this subject. This isn't a firm re-work, just a concept that might work with what you all seem to be trying to do. It's essentially just a structure with some added ideas that we've fleshed out.
It's at the bottom of the page.
http://forums.te4.org/viewtopic.php?f=3 ... 81#p194081
Re: Necromancer Summons Rework
Inconsistentency in tone. The Bone Golem and Legion are horrific amalgamations thrown together haphazardly, with greater emphasis on getting a functional monster on your side than on any particulr aesthetic. Especially with the "tower of spells" the new Bone Golem would be, I doubt it'd even be humanoid in appearance.
And then for flesh, we have a finely crafted dog-centaur-two-headed-thingy. It makes more sense if it's a constantly shifting amorphous mass of flesh with only a vaguely bestial form.
That being said, functionally there is no difference. It'd just be nice if everything was consistent-they're all quick and dirty projects thrown together for function, or they're all well-crafted and "pleasing" to the eye.
And then for flesh, we have a finely crafted dog-centaur-two-headed-thingy. It makes more sense if it's a constantly shifting amorphous mass of flesh with only a vaguely bestial form.
That being said, functionally there is no difference. It'd just be nice if everything was consistent-they're all quick and dirty projects thrown together for function, or they're all well-crafted and "pleasing" to the eye.
I'm not crying. I'm offering a sacrifice to DarkGod in hopes he'll show favor to me.
It hasn't worked yet.
It hasn't worked yet.