Currently, I feel like Necromancer summons are kind of an odd duck. They're kind of middle ground in terms of both permanence and resource cost when compared to Summoners and Alchemists (and also now Demonologists, who rather go along lines with Summoners). On the other hand, they're the least customizable, seeing as you can't specify anything more than "Make me some undead!" Lastly, their one advantage, they're the fastest. You can mass-summon a number of them all at once.
Mass-summoning works with the typical undead theme, they win by hordes, not individual power, but it doesn't really make much sense. You have so little control over your power that you don't even know if you're raising a skeleton, a vampire, or a dread? Bone only, full body, or no corporeal being at all? And never mind that you can't control what kind of role the undead will be. Do you want casters, tanks, melee damage dealers; it doesn't matter. You get what you get.
Contrast this with the lore for the Master and his three uniques, and for the Half-Finished Bone Golem in the undead start. Both of these suggest that necromancers can do much more customized work, and that it's more powerful when they do.
With that in mind, and knowing that customized normal minions would be a nightmare to implement (seriously, do you prefer a pop-up dialogue every time you want to summon something, or would you rather have 12 different individual summoning skills), an idea was spat around chat yesterday that I think has merit. Sorry, I don't remember who suggested it, but I'd love to give them credit. Redo the Assemble talent so that it makes a bone golem actually made out of undead minion parts. Meaning you can switch to the bone golem, open it's inventory, and change out the parts.
I'm thinking when you activate the Assemble talent, you can select 3-5 (talent level) targets to try to pull into your bone golem (existing if you already have one, or your new one if you don't). If the targets are your minions, it's automatically successful. If the target is anyone else, it deals damage and only works if it kills them. For every target the talent worked on, the bone golem get's a random body part (never duplicates from one pull) which imbues some of the target's power (stats, talents, resists, other bonuses) into the bone golem. Maybe, if you already have a bone golem, it also heals and/or regenerates resources for every creature that's successfully pulled in. Given that this kind of bone golem would have a lot more variety of resources, it should have a way to regenerate every resource except equilibrium (being undead, it can't use any), probably psi (being a golem, it has no real mind), and possibly hate (similar).
I'm also imagining that if the bone golem is destroyed, you lose all the body parts that were equipped or in it's inventory. Meaning you have to start from scratch if you lose it. So long as the body parts have high weight (which they should), this would limit the ability for a necromancer (not usually the strongest character) to carry around spare parts in his own inventory, but the golem could have a ridiculous carry capacity, so it could hold various reserve parts.
This places the bone golem somewhere between the alchemist's golem and other summons, being more disposable and less permanent than the alchemist's golem, but much more customizable than the necromancer summons. So long as the body parts mostly grant basic stats and talents, with other bonuses being more of a secondary issue, it also makes the bone golem customizable in a way the alchemist's golem isn't.
Necromancer Summons Rework
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Re: Necromancer Summons Rework
One slight issue with this-the game can actually already have summons, including undead minions, pick up items, but it has a habit of just plain losing them. With that in mind, all your time spent customizing your bone golem to perfection could just vanish at any moment.
Technical issues aside, that's actually a very, very cool idea. Not only does it make the Necromancer more cusomizable, it also adds a nice little attack and a way to heal your best minion. Considering that there are somewhere around three "fixed Necromancer" mods out right now, I wouldn't be surprised if one of them snapped up this idea (and perhaps DarkGod will too, for later updates), and I for one would love to play around with it.
The only thing that isn't really clear is how exactly you plan for this to work-the way I read it, body parts from minions are "equipped" like items, but you also refer to it carrying around real items. Could you clarify how that part of it functions?
Technical issues aside, that's actually a very, very cool idea. Not only does it make the Necromancer more cusomizable, it also adds a nice little attack and a way to heal your best minion. Considering that there are somewhere around three "fixed Necromancer" mods out right now, I wouldn't be surprised if one of them snapped up this idea (and perhaps DarkGod will too, for later updates), and I for one would love to play around with it.
The only thing that isn't really clear is how exactly you plan for this to work-the way I read it, body parts from minions are "equipped" like items, but you also refer to it carrying around real items. Could you clarify how that part of it functions?
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Re: Necromancer Summons Rework
Why not simply craft a skill tree for the Bone Giant? A series of standalone skills that you can pick from (but not have enough points to pick them all) rather than pre-set categories.
For every skill you place in the Assemble talent, the Bone Giant gains 1-3 points. These points can be distributed across stats and talents as you desire.
Just allow for a customized build that summons that type of Bone Giant whenever you summon one. That way you have no issue with losing items or gear (equally frustrating) or the tedium of having to farm or scum.
For every skill you place in the Assemble talent, the Bone Giant gains 1-3 points. These points can be distributed across stats and talents as you desire.
Just allow for a customized build that summons that type of Bone Giant whenever you summon one. That way you have no issue with losing items or gear (equally frustrating) or the tedium of having to farm or scum.
Re: Necromancer Summons Rework
There's going to be an update in your Newcromancer idea thread, isn't there, Delmuir?
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Re: Necromancer Summons Rework
I seriously considered it…Red wrote:There's going to be an update in your Newcromancer idea thread, isn't there, Delmuir?
Although what I think makes more sense is that I may simply create another Necromancer called a "Lich Lord" or something like that.
Re: Necromancer Summons Rework
That would be solved by giving bone golems some permanency so they last until killed.Red wrote:One slight issue with this-the game can actually already have summons, including undead minions, pick up items, but it has a habit of just plain losing them. With that in mind, all your time spent customizing your bone golem to perfection could just vanish at any moment.
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Re: Necromancer Summons Rework
Eh? Bone Golems do last until killed.
Those other necromancers have time to craft unique minions because they aren't out adventuring.
Its like how non adventuring alchemists can brew elixirs and craft jewellery while you can't.
Those other necromancers have time to craft unique minions because they aren't out adventuring.
Its like how non adventuring alchemists can brew elixirs and craft jewellery while you can't.
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Re: Necromancer Summons Rework
All minions are supposed to last until killed, but there are bugs where sometimes minions will vanish without being killed. It's not what's supposed to happen, it's what actually happens occassionally.
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Re: Necromancer Summons Rework
Sorry about confusing you. I was thinking basic inventory as opposed to equipped items. This bone golem could also become something of a pack mule for the necromancer, with the risk of losing items if the golem is killed.Red wrote:The only thing that isn't really clear is how exactly you plan for this to work-the way I read it, body parts from minions are "equipped" like items, but you also refer to it carrying around real items. Could you clarify how that part of it functions?
I actually like keeping it that any items the unit has that aren't artifacts disappear when they die (this already happens for normal undead). There could be a few artifact body parts, probably associated with bosses (Urlessk's Femur, Gorbat's Skull, etc.), which would drop when the golem died, but yes, the intention is that you'd have to start from scratch if it did. Given that you can heal it and bone golems are already pretty tanky, I'm not sure how much of an issue this would really be. Plus, when you make a new one, you automatically start with several body parts, whatever the minimum needed to make a golem would be. I'm thinking if you try this skill on several enemies, and you don't kill enough of them, it doesn't actually make a new golem, it just does damage. Though if you already had a golem, it should get items and heals from whatever was killed.
I'm imagining this being something you could customize a ton, and it would be a loss if it were killed, but not huge. As for the idea of having multiple bone golem summoning skills, that seems a little messy to me, and still not nearly as customizable. There are just too many options of what you could make compared to a few simple role descriptions: Tank, Striker, Mage, where's the Shadowblade with Reaving Combat, or the Sun Paladin, or the paradox-powered Doomed? Ok, there may need to be some limits on what's available, but you get the idea.
Re: Necromancer Summons Rework
How would this lead to a paradox-powered Doomed?
Outside that bit of confusion, your idea seems good, but as Delmuir pointed out, it encourages scumming. And worse, successful scumming... Well, look at high-powered Adventurers. You could make that happen, with enough luck, and Bone Golems are already quite powerful enough without Reavng Combat (Arm), Beyond the Flesh (Skull), Arcane Combat (Torso), Greater Weapon Focus (Leg), Earthen Missiles (Arm), and Unarmed Mastery (Leg). That is, admittedly, an exceptional combo, but the point is things like that are possible, and that encourages the player to repeatedly seek out Adventuring parties or other such enemies to nab the best abilities and win with their uber-golem.
I really like the idea of consuming enemies with an attack talent, but I also think it's better to go with Deluir's idea to simply have the Bone Golem have its own talent tree like an Alchemist Golem. As a compromise between the two ideas, what if it has certain base trees it always has, and can gain extra trees based on what it consumes? So a basic Bone Golem has BG Offense and BG Defense trees, but if it eats enough mages it gains BG Arcane tree. Likewise, if it eats enough Corruptors, it gains the BG Corruption tree. Each one would have a set of limited abilities (limited further by lack of points for the Bone Golem), and it can only have X trees at a time. (1-3 based on Assemble level, maybe?)
Outside that bit of confusion, your idea seems good, but as Delmuir pointed out, it encourages scumming. And worse, successful scumming... Well, look at high-powered Adventurers. You could make that happen, with enough luck, and Bone Golems are already quite powerful enough without Reavng Combat (Arm), Beyond the Flesh (Skull), Arcane Combat (Torso), Greater Weapon Focus (Leg), Earthen Missiles (Arm), and Unarmed Mastery (Leg). That is, admittedly, an exceptional combo, but the point is things like that are possible, and that encourages the player to repeatedly seek out Adventuring parties or other such enemies to nab the best abilities and win with their uber-golem.
I really like the idea of consuming enemies with an attack talent, but I also think it's better to go with Deluir's idea to simply have the Bone Golem have its own talent tree like an Alchemist Golem. As a compromise between the two ideas, what if it has certain base trees it always has, and can gain extra trees based on what it consumes? So a basic Bone Golem has BG Offense and BG Defense trees, but if it eats enough mages it gains BG Arcane tree. Likewise, if it eats enough Corruptors, it gains the BG Corruption tree. Each one would have a set of limited abilities (limited further by lack of points for the Bone Golem), and it can only have X trees at a time. (1-3 based on Assemble level, maybe?)
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Re: Necromancer Summons Rework
Sorry again, the 'paradox-powered doomed' comment referred to a BG with both paradox and doomed talents, maybe some paradox attack spells plus the shadows?
I do see what you mean about certain abilities providing OP combos. That could be addressed by limiting what kind of abilities were available. I wasn't thinking you could grab just anything, but rather that body parts would have egos like other equipment, and you'd get appropriately ego-ed items from appropriate enemies. So, for example, you could get a mage arm of the earth from a geomancer type, that gave you a bonus to magic and willpower (mage) and one or two of the stone or earth spells, like Earthen Missile, Body of Stone, Landslide, etc. Or you could get a rogue torso of shadows from a shadowblade, that gave some dexterity and cunning, and gave some of the shadowblade talents. You could further restrict things with: arms only get activated attack abilities, torsos only get passives, sustains, and damage resists, legs only get mobility talents and movement-themed resists (freeze, daze, slow, knockback, pin), and heads only get spells (active or sustained) and vision/mind resists (blind, confusion, fear, etc). Of course, that's just spitballing some ideas.
I kind of like the idea of hidden trees that get unlocked based on what enemies you consume. I guess you're thinking the Bone Golem itself would have the consume ability, or would that still be an effect of activating Assemble? Either way, you could have one tree for each resource bar, or you could work it off of known talent trees. The one problem I see with this is... there would have to be a lot of them. I mean, with mana alone, you've got elements (could be one tree of elemental spells), shadow, illusion/light, alchemy, and necromancy. And that's not getting into things like the temporal or meta trees. Vim is starting to get similarly complex. Corruptor and Reaver you could generalize into one tree, but Demonologist and Doombringer need at least a second tree, maybe one tree for each.
My point is, even if you ban all mental talents (makes sense, since this is a golem), you'd still end up with a LOT of possible trees. If this works out, though, I'd strongly suggest some kind of limited/complete talent respec every time you successfully use Assemble. Either that, or the golem gets talent points based on Assemble use (1 for every target or something). I'm just thinking about people who would be heavily invested in the light tree from the couple of luminous horrors they grabbed, and then they get the arcane tree and don't have enough points left that they could really invest in it. Another factor (and I know I'm kind of rambling here) would be that, if you limit how many trees they can have, will you let the player remove trees already earned to make room for more, or will they have to kill off their golem and start a fresh one?
Anyway, I do kind of like the idea, I'm just trying to help flesh it out with these issues.
I do see what you mean about certain abilities providing OP combos. That could be addressed by limiting what kind of abilities were available. I wasn't thinking you could grab just anything, but rather that body parts would have egos like other equipment, and you'd get appropriately ego-ed items from appropriate enemies. So, for example, you could get a mage arm of the earth from a geomancer type, that gave you a bonus to magic and willpower (mage) and one or two of the stone or earth spells, like Earthen Missile, Body of Stone, Landslide, etc. Or you could get a rogue torso of shadows from a shadowblade, that gave some dexterity and cunning, and gave some of the shadowblade talents. You could further restrict things with: arms only get activated attack abilities, torsos only get passives, sustains, and damage resists, legs only get mobility talents and movement-themed resists (freeze, daze, slow, knockback, pin), and heads only get spells (active or sustained) and vision/mind resists (blind, confusion, fear, etc). Of course, that's just spitballing some ideas.
I kind of like the idea of hidden trees that get unlocked based on what enemies you consume. I guess you're thinking the Bone Golem itself would have the consume ability, or would that still be an effect of activating Assemble? Either way, you could have one tree for each resource bar, or you could work it off of known talent trees. The one problem I see with this is... there would have to be a lot of them. I mean, with mana alone, you've got elements (could be one tree of elemental spells), shadow, illusion/light, alchemy, and necromancy. And that's not getting into things like the temporal or meta trees. Vim is starting to get similarly complex. Corruptor and Reaver you could generalize into one tree, but Demonologist and Doombringer need at least a second tree, maybe one tree for each.
My point is, even if you ban all mental talents (makes sense, since this is a golem), you'd still end up with a LOT of possible trees. If this works out, though, I'd strongly suggest some kind of limited/complete talent respec every time you successfully use Assemble. Either that, or the golem gets talent points based on Assemble use (1 for every target or something). I'm just thinking about people who would be heavily invested in the light tree from the couple of luminous horrors they grabbed, and then they get the arcane tree and don't have enough points left that they could really invest in it. Another factor (and I know I'm kind of rambling here) would be that, if you limit how many trees they can have, will you let the player remove trees already earned to make room for more, or will they have to kill off their golem and start a fresh one?
Anyway, I do kind of like the idea, I'm just trying to help flesh it out with these issues.
Re: Necromancer Summons Rework
Don't feel the need to give your Bone Golem everything. No balanced player class in the game has everything-why the hell should a player summon get that?
Give just a single tree per class, pick or create abilities that best represent each class, and be done with it. It might be small pallette from some classes like Archmages, but remember-this is an AI. They are dumb. Give them a million options and they tend to pick the absolute worst one, so if you only give them four choices at least they only missed out on three better ones.
Re-speccing should eliminate all extra trees. So if you don't like where you've put your points, you can get them all back, but now you have to hunt out your extra categories again.
I think the Bone Golem should get .5 stat points per level per level of Assemble and 1 class points per five levels per raw level of Assemble.
Example: With TL 1 Assemble, a Bone Golem will get one stat point every other level, a class point at level 1, level 6, and every five thereafter.
With TL 6.5 (raw 5) Assemble, a Bone Golem will get 3 stat points every level with an extra one at level 4, 8, and every four thereafter. It will get one class point per level.
That should give you enough points to have fun with your Bone Golem without overpowering it. The one thing is that this should have a very hard limit-no more than raw level 5 and no more than effective level 10. Rares and bosses can have talents beyond level 5, and I would absolutely hate to run into a Bone Golem who's master has TL 15 Assemble. 7.5 stat points and 3 class points per level is quite enough.
All Assemble would do is give your Bone Golem extra categories and heal it. It does not affect stat or class points in any way outside of offerring more places to spend them.
Give just a single tree per class, pick or create abilities that best represent each class, and be done with it. It might be small pallette from some classes like Archmages, but remember-this is an AI. They are dumb. Give them a million options and they tend to pick the absolute worst one, so if you only give them four choices at least they only missed out on three better ones.
Re-speccing should eliminate all extra trees. So if you don't like where you've put your points, you can get them all back, but now you have to hunt out your extra categories again.
I think the Bone Golem should get .5 stat points per level per level of Assemble and 1 class points per five levels per raw level of Assemble.
Example: With TL 1 Assemble, a Bone Golem will get one stat point every other level, a class point at level 1, level 6, and every five thereafter.
With TL 6.5 (raw 5) Assemble, a Bone Golem will get 3 stat points every level with an extra one at level 4, 8, and every four thereafter. It will get one class point per level.
That should give you enough points to have fun with your Bone Golem without overpowering it. The one thing is that this should have a very hard limit-no more than raw level 5 and no more than effective level 10. Rares and bosses can have talents beyond level 5, and I would absolutely hate to run into a Bone Golem who's master has TL 15 Assemble. 7.5 stat points and 3 class points per level is quite enough.
All Assemble would do is give your Bone Golem extra categories and heal it. It does not affect stat or class points in any way outside of offerring more places to spend them.
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Re: Necromancer Summons Rework
So:
One tree for warriors. Since it won't equip any weapons, either make these generic attack abilities, or brawler abilities. I'm leaning toward generic attack, though one grapple ability would be nice.
One tree for all rogues. Anything from shadowblades? Poisons? Maybe a ranged physical ability, like a bone shot? Some Marauder stuff, maybe.
One tree for mages. Probably four elemental attack spells, or maybe three with some kind of shielding and/or healing spell?
One tree for defilers. Bone shield? some blight spells, maybe something to let turn-consuming spells produce a melee attack?
One tree for paradoxers. Not really sure what. Weapon Folding? Teleports? Ranged spells?
One tree for celestials. Some light and some darkness spells? Maybe something like Martyrdom or Retribution, but not requiring a shield? Maybe something to protect/heal the Necro?
No tree for wilders. No tree for psionics. No tree for afflicted.
I like your stat/talent scaling idea.
All in all, though, I want to keep this feeling different from the Alchemist's golem. So if the bone golem dies, you really need to start over again (though the golem is spawned at your level?). That's also why I prefer body part equipment for handling customization. It gives it a very distinct feel. It would also functionally limit the golem to a max of 6-12 talents, depending on how many can be on which body parts (I don't imagine anything would give more than 2 talents). You'd just be able to customize the golem to the current need better.
One tree for warriors. Since it won't equip any weapons, either make these generic attack abilities, or brawler abilities. I'm leaning toward generic attack, though one grapple ability would be nice.
One tree for all rogues. Anything from shadowblades? Poisons? Maybe a ranged physical ability, like a bone shot? Some Marauder stuff, maybe.
One tree for mages. Probably four elemental attack spells, or maybe three with some kind of shielding and/or healing spell?
One tree for defilers. Bone shield? some blight spells, maybe something to let turn-consuming spells produce a melee attack?
One tree for paradoxers. Not really sure what. Weapon Folding? Teleports? Ranged spells?
One tree for celestials. Some light and some darkness spells? Maybe something like Martyrdom or Retribution, but not requiring a shield? Maybe something to protect/heal the Necro?
No tree for wilders. No tree for psionics. No tree for afflicted.
I like your stat/talent scaling idea.
All in all, though, I want to keep this feeling different from the Alchemist's golem. So if the bone golem dies, you really need to start over again (though the golem is spawned at your level?). That's also why I prefer body part equipment for handling customization. It gives it a very distinct feel. It would also functionally limit the golem to a max of 6-12 talents, depending on how many can be on which body parts (I don't imagine anything would give more than 2 talents). You'd just be able to customize the golem to the current need better.
Re: Necromancer Summons Rework
If you treat body parts as items that you can store for later, that'd allow you to mix and match your Bone Golem for whatever situation you need.
Honestly, if it goes that far, I think the Bone Golem either needs its own category exclusive to Bone Golem, or just go whole-hog and make it a RaceClass like Beholders. Which would actually be pretty awesome.
Honestly, if it goes that far, I think the Bone Golem either needs its own category exclusive to Bone Golem, or just go whole-hog and make it a RaceClass like Beholders. Which would actually be pretty awesome.
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Re: Necromancer Summons Rework
Honestly, I kind of feel like giving them their own trees to invest points in goes further that way. I also feel like equipment requires more re-work if one dies, but makes that rework more likely to be easy. With the talent trees, if your BG dies, you can make a new one, spend a few of the points in the two default trees, and then need to hunt down enemies with the specific classes (or probably just resources) you want trees from. That could be very hard, especially for some of the less standard resources like paradox, vim, or celestial energies. There are a ton of enemies that have mana by default, and I think just about everything has stamina, but the others mean a rather select group.
On the other hand, with equipment, it may be possible you have spare parts stored in your fortress, though probably not the optimal parts you had on your golem. Actually, I guess the way I was describing it before would require a similar level of hunting, but you wouldn't feel a pressure to spend points that were currently doing nothing. You'd just not have that awesome piece of equipment you had before. And the more I think about it, the more I think body parts would be somewhat more generalized. Maybe basic creature type, i.e. dragon, demon, animal, plant?, unnatural, undead, etc. Not sure what to do about people, who usually come with some indication of class (if they're not called a geomancer or warrior, then they're an adventurer with classes).
On the other hand, with equipment, it may be possible you have spare parts stored in your fortress, though probably not the optimal parts you had on your golem. Actually, I guess the way I was describing it before would require a similar level of hunting, but you wouldn't feel a pressure to spend points that were currently doing nothing. You'd just not have that awesome piece of equipment you had before. And the more I think about it, the more I think body parts would be somewhat more generalized. Maybe basic creature type, i.e. dragon, demon, animal, plant?, unnatural, undead, etc. Not sure what to do about people, who usually come with some indication of class (if they're not called a geomancer or warrior, then they're an adventurer with classes).