Full Necro concept… Pg1, now in add-ons section.

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Red
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Re: Full Necro concept… Pg1, now in add-ons section.

#76 Post by Red »

It doesn't happen often. The one time it happened to me, I was actually ready to rage quite when I noticed I wasn't actually dead.

Any particular spot you're thinking about cramming it in?
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It hasn't worked yet.

Delmuir
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Re: Full Necro concept… Pg1, now in add-ons section.

#77 Post by Delmuir »

Not sure. It depends on what is missing from the build.

I know it'll have mana and mobility problems but it's also susceptible to manaclash and silence pretty dramatically. At this point, I have no idea what problems the class will have and how bad so I'm not really sure what to do.

Still, I'm reasonably sure I can wedge a bonus in there to help. One thing I like is the lingering-effect that the neg-life bonuses get. I can't recall who suggested it but it was a good idea…

I also tweaked Chance of Life again such that when you max the skill, it has a chance to trigger on every hit rather than only if the hit would kill you. Given the cost of the skill and the small chance of triggering, that seemed fair to me.
Last edited by Delmuir on Mon Dec 22, 2014 2:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

Red
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Re: Full Necro concept… Pg1, now in add-ons section.

#78 Post by Red »

Not sure where they'd go, but I've got some bonuses that could address the mana and silence issues. They'd have to be limited or hard to get or something, since you don't build a good class by shoring up every weak point until the end result is NecrOPmancer.

Whisperings of the Dead
Grants a chance to cast spells through a Silence effect with a chance equal to the percent of your max life you are currently into negative life.

Invigorating Sepulchre
Grants a percentile bonus to mana regen and gains equal to the percent of your max life you are currently into negative life. This bonus applies both to normal mana regen and any instant mana gains, such as from Manasurge Runes or from mana on crit procs.

Both abilities use the same system for determining percents. If you have 100 max life and are at -50 HP, you have a 50% chance/bonus. If you have 500 max life and are at -100 HP, 20% chance/bonus. If you have 200 max life and are at -400 HP, 100% chance (can't go above 100% change to cast a spell)/200% bonus.
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It hasn't worked yet.

Delmuir
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Re: Full Necro concept… Pg1, now in add-ons section.

#79 Post by Delmuir »

Interesting… I rather like both of those ideas. The mana regen is an issue and I'm wondering if instead of your idea, you simply gained a mana regen ability…

I could fit that into Become Death or Invocation of Decrepitude. In fact, I really like the idea of fitting neg-life bonuses onto a lot of skills.

Also, your response was so fast… I made a quick change to Chance of Life but I edited into my previous response. Whoops.

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Re: Full Necro concept… Pg1, now in add-ons section.

#80 Post by Red »

It's a good change, and a very nice bonus for putting 4 points in. (5 if it relies on raw talent level. Make sure that is specified.) If you do add in the Whispering effect anywhere, it'd be a good combination to always give you at least a tiny Chance Of each hit giving you Life.

You know, what if Become Death drained their resources and converted everything into mana for you? So if you drain 5 Vim, gain 10 Mana, if you drain 3 Positive/Negative energy, gain 12 Mana, and the rest of the conversion ratios can be figured out later. Same for Invocation. Unfortunately, neither effect really fits Whispering.

Finally, I really want to see Sepulchre used somewhere in the Newcromancers. It's a cool word and certainly thematically appropiate.
I'm not crying. I'm offering a sacrifice to DarkGod in hopes he'll show favor to me.

It hasn't worked yet.

Delmuir
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Re: Full Necro concept… Pg1, now in add-ons section.

#81 Post by Delmuir »

I wanted it to hit at raw talent level 5 (i.e. 5 invested points) because if you're going to invest in this sustain, you're going to want all 5 points anyway.

I should also note that it'll trigger twice if you're at positive life and the hit will kill you… it checks once at 0 life and once at death.

Also, LOVE Sepulchre as a word… and given that it references a tomb, it strikes me as a defensive effect. Now, what to do with it, ha ha… I have one idea, later in this post.

The life/resource drain on Become Death only hits if the Necrosis effect hits. Otherwise, the only thing it does is have a chance to drop sustains and other beneficial effects.

Having said that, I could adapt Become Death such that it does this:

lvl 1… Grants chance per turn to drop a beneficial effect or sustain, including antimagic and prodigies.
lvl 2… Grants chance per turn to inflict non-undead with the Necrosis effect.
lvl 3… Grants Sepulchre effect...

Sepulchre effect lasts for duration of Become Death (including the 3-turn lingers). Sepulchre grants the Necromancer 20% chance of gaining 1 random ward with every hit endured while Become Death is active.

lvl 4… Converts all dropped effects, sustains, and inflictions of Necrosis into mana.
lvl 5… Gains ability to cast non-offensive spells through Silence.

That's probably a bit too much and I'd probably have to weaken something somewhere… especially with the wards as they're crazy-powerful.

I also didn't want another skill that demanded a large talent-point investment but it's an idea. This class would have a lot of great skills but short of the infinite dungeon, you wouldn't be able to max everything you wanted, ha ha.

Thoughts?

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Re: Full Necro concept… Pg1, now in add-ons section.

#82 Post by Red »

Sepulchre actually wouldn't be so powerful. If Wards are totally randomized, chances are they won't be of the right element. I'd rather it has a %chance based on how low on HP you are, spellpower, whatever to grant a ward of the same element you were hit with.

For the ability as a whole, swap Sepulchre and mana gains. That would make the first three points all about powering up your offense, and only the last two about defense instead of two offense, a defense, an offense, and a defense. Alternatively, make Sepulchre the second point so it alternates between offense and defense each point.
I'm not crying. I'm offering a sacrifice to DarkGod in hopes he'll show favor to me.

It hasn't worked yet.

Delmuir
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Re: Full Necro concept… Pg1, now in add-ons section.

#83 Post by Delmuir »

Red wrote:Sepulchre actually wouldn't be so powerful. If Wards are totally randomized, chances are they won't be of the right element. I'd rather it has a %chance based on how low on HP you are, spellpower, whatever to grant a ward of the same element you were hit with.

For the ability as a whole, swap Sepulchre and mana gains. That would make the first three points all about powering up your offense, and only the last two about defense instead of two offense, a defense, an offense, and a defense. Alternatively, make Sepulchre the second point so it alternates between offense and defense each point.
My only concern is that you already have a lot of defense, including wards with the second Sacrifice function. You'd have a 1/12 (I think) chance of getting any damage type and 20% chance every hit.

Is it powerful? No, but it's an added benefit over nothing… if I make every ability super useful, it creates an OP character.

Alternatively, I could make Sepulchre do this: 20% chance of granting 1 ward to you and every minion. Sure, it's still random but now it would affect all of your minions.

Either way, I'm not sure this will make it into the build as I kind of wanted a few 1-point wonders in this class.

I'll think on it.

Delmuir
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Re: Full Necro concept… Pg1, now in add-ons section.

#84 Post by Delmuir »

So, this class only has 2 (or 3 if you include Ice) locked categories and some potential room for some added features for more specialized play. I'm not 100% sure what would be optimal as this has no play-testing but here are some ideas:

1. Something that improves overall resistances… would be especially nice with Lichform.

2. Skill that absorbs damage and converts it into bonuses such as mana, damage penetration, or casting speed, etc.

3. Passive that grants specialized knowledge of undead such that you can deal more damage to undead a la Housepet's skill.

4. Also inspired from Housepet, something akin to the Meatshield skill except that it grants wards to your or your minion, based on whomever makes the kill. It would grant a ward based on enemy type and/or race. Standard enemies would grant physical ward, elementals would grant damage type, Summoner minions and Oozemancer oozes would grant nature ward, ghouls would grant blight, etc.

A sustain would probably be best in this regard.

5. Eternal Bond… or something like that. This would be a skill that tags an enemy and you cannot die until they die but once they die or the spell expires after "x" turns, all of the damage you endure is taken over the same "x" turns.

6. Skill that reduces all enemy saves as a passive effective within your Necrotic Aura.

7. Temporarily shifts some % of your life into negative life, i.e. you have 500 life and 300 neg life, this would shift that to 350 life and 450 neg life. This spell would have to be fairly limited as it has the potential for major abuse with Sacrifice and the Ghoul damage reduction trait.

8. Touch of the Grave: grants your minions the ability to have % chance to freeze an enemy upon physical attack as well as granting freeze immunity to your minions. This would probably be a sustain.

9. Banner… every time one of your minions die, your remaining minions gain added movement speed, armor, and defense.

10. Legion of Undead… every minion of yours in play grants fear in your non-undead enemies. This lowers their attack speed and accuracy.

I'm not sure any of this will make it in but these are some of my ideas…

Here's a category idea:

1. Whisperings of the Dead: the dead speak to you, granting you knowledge impossible to the mortal. This active grants you the ability to survive critical strikes such that a critical hit CANNOT kill you. A critical strike will always leave you with a minimum of 1 life, even if in negative life.

Any damage negated by this spell is returned to the enemy as arcane damage.

In addition, you gain up to 25% chance to perform critical strikes against undead enemies.

2. Spectral Touch: a sustain that grants you and all of your minions additional darkness and cold damage to all of your non-magic attacks. In addition, all of those attacks gain a small % chance to freeze the targets.

3. Sepulchre: Temporarily shifts some positive life to negative life… maybe up 200 tops. This should have a short duration as it's immensely abusable with Sacrifice and Ghoul trait.

4. Hellfire: Within your Necrotic Aura and LoS, this spell can deal a total of "x" damage but it distributes it such that it kills as many enemies as possible. If this spell cannot kill any enemies, then it distributes half of the damage evenly to the enemies and half to you and your minions.

The damage is delivered as 50% fire and 50% darkness (darkfire, I think?).

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Re: Full Necro concept… Pg1, now in add-ons section.

#85 Post by Red »

Whisperings of the Dead: I'm not sure why whispering let's you survive critical hits, so maybe something like Armored In Undeath? In addition, two details about the crunch. Firstly, a critical hit should be able to kill you if you're within X% of death. Otherwise, if you're dealing with an enemy that always crits (such as if you ran into another player, somehow) you are basically immortal with a regen rate of at least 1. I am aware that DoT and similar would actually kill you, but all the same, only dying from crits at exactly 1 is pretty potent. Secondly, does it stop you at +1 HP, or go right past it and only stop at one point shy of dying?

Spectral Touch: Fun. And gives incentive to use a bow on your downtime, for the freeze (if you have downtime).

Sepulchre: Actually, in order to stop abuse and give it the "Oh shit" power a real short buff should have, why not just have it temporarily add up to 200 negative life? That way, if you're nearing death, you can just give yourself an extra 200 HP for a long enough to get out.

Hellfire: Good for crowds, since it'll focus on those it can actually kill, and good for bosses, because Fatal Spite. Also, it's called Hellfire. If you need a special damage name, why not Hellfire?
I'm not crying. I'm offering a sacrifice to DarkGod in hopes he'll show favor to me.

It hasn't worked yet.

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Re: Full Necro concept… Pg1, now in add-ons section.

#86 Post by Delmuir »

Red wrote:
Hellfire: Good for crowds, since it'll focus on those it can actually kill, and good for bosses, because Fatal Spite. Also, it's called Hellfire. If you need a special damage name, why not Hellfire?
I think Darkfire is the actual name of 50% fire and 50% darkness. There are a couple of spells that do that.

As for the other points… yeah, this is all pretty rough and I've no intention of adding any of it any time soon. I'm just throwing out ideas to address potential problems.

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Re: Full Necro concept… Pg1, now in add-ons section.

#87 Post by Red »

Hey, it's worked out pretty well so far for you. One day, maybe Necromancers will have even more categories than Archmages. (And potentially be as Madness capable. At that point, though, it's probably time for a nerf or sixty.)
I'm not crying. I'm offering a sacrifice to DarkGod in hopes he'll show favor to me.

It hasn't worked yet.

Delmuir
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Re: Full Necro concept… Pg1, now in add-ons section.

#88 Post by Delmuir »

Red wrote:Whisperings of the Dead: I'm not sure why whispering let's you survive critical hits, so maybe something like Armored In Undeath? In addition, two details about the crunch. Firstly, a critical hit should be able to kill you if you're within X% of death. Otherwise, if you're dealing with an enemy that always crits (such as if you ran into another player, somehow) you are basically immortal with a regen rate of at least 1. I am aware that DoT and similar would actually kill you, but all the same, only dying from crits at exactly 1 is pretty potent. Secondly, does it stop you at +1 HP, or go right past it and only stop at one point shy of dying?

Spectral Touch: Fun. And gives incentive to use a bow on your downtime, for the freeze (if you have downtime).

Sepulchre: Actually, in order to stop abuse and give it the "Oh shit" power a real short buff should have, why not just have it temporarily add up to 200 negative life? That way, if you're nearing death, you can just give yourself an extra 200 HP for a long enough to get out.
Turns out that 50% darkness and 50% fire is called Shadowflame according to the wiki. Anyway…

My theory on Whisperings of the Dead is that the spirits could see things that you cannot and thus could warn you about incoming damage and afford you the chance to avoid killing strikes.

I would say that it shouldn't stop a 1 if you have negative life so much as it should always stop right before actual death. Just an idea though.

Spectral Touch is nice and I really like it but I honestly have no place to put it. It would definitely require a new category.

Sepulchre… yeah, your idea is a bit more elegant but I kind of want the skill to do a bit more. Maybe wards or something… not sure.

So, with that in mind, here's my new thought on an extra locked category:

Lord of Darkness. Skills in no particular order:

1. Spectral Touch… sustain that grants cold, darkness, and freeze to the melee attacks of you and all of your minions.

2. Sepulchre… active skill that grants 1 per active talent level random ward with every enemy or minion death within your aura during the duration of the spell. The ward is assigned to you or one of your minions at random.

In theory, this could grant you up to 7 wards PER death within your aura. Sure, they'd be random but there would be a bunch of them if you used the skill at the right time. In a crowd, this would prove immensely useful in combination with undeath link.

3. Hellflame… new sustain concept: every enemy who is frozen and within your Necrotic Aura suffers 50% cold/fire damage equal to "x damage" each turn while frozen. This damage is low-to-moderate however and has no save against.

More so, should Hellflame kill an enemy, its life-force is violently released as a phantom doing 50% cold/fire damage equal to 20% of the enemy's max life that attempts to drag another enemy to hell. If said phantom cannot find at least one frozen enemy to kill, within your aura, it will target a non-frozen enemy, and if it can't kill one of them, it will target one of your minions or neutral NPC, and then finally you.

This damage would be cumulative such that if you killed 3 enemies with Hellflame then it would be 20% of their cumulative life that attempted to kill another enemy.

More so, this acts like a wisp with super fast movement speed… it wanders around until it finds the appropriate enemy. If one of these phantoms is wandering around with 150 life and you kill another enemy for a comparable amount then it doesn't create a new phantom so much as it just instantly increases the life of the current phantom to lets say 250… now, if it finds an enemy with 200 life and kills it then it still has 50 life to get rid of and it will continue to wander around trying to do so.

I actually thought about replacing Will o' the Wisp with this idea but you just don't have enough chances to freeze… perhaps this spell could grant all of your darkness/cold spells a tiny chance to freeze or who knows?

4. Eternal Bond… tag one of your minions such that neither can die until duration expires, however upon expiration you both suffer the full amount of damage that you both suffered during the duration of the spell (yes, that effectively doubles the amount of damage) spread out over "x" turns equal to the duration of the spell.

Any thoughts? Just kicking around ideas...

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Re: Full Necro concept… Pg1, now in add-ons section.

#89 Post by Red »

Lord of Darkness-Aw yeah, another tree all about darkness!
...
Wait, why is it all about freezing? :P

Perhaps "Lord of the Frozen Tomb" instead.

Spectral Touch-Nothing too crazy here, but a useful sustain and obviously the basis for the rest of this category.

Sepulchre-I'd have to see how this works out in actual play, how the random wards work, etc. It's a cool idea, though, and furthermore has the potential for a truly ridiculous and risky combo. Prepare a really wide unfriendly fire AoE nuke. Activate Sepulchre. Kill all your minions in one shot. With TL7 Sepulchre and, say, ten minions, you're looking at giving yourself 70 wards, at the cost of your meat shields. Not sure how practical it'd be, but a damn fun combo.

Hallflame-This just looks cool and fun. One thing, though, does the damage to frozen enemies work through the freeze? Or does it split damage between the enemy and the iceblock?

Eternal Bond-Unstoppable for Necromancers. And considering how broken and OP Unstoppable is... I'm not sure this is a good talent to have, especially since it has nothing to do with the freezing them of the rest of the category.

A proposal for another T4 skill would be this:

Eternal Winter-A sustain that makes any cold damage dealt to a frozen enemy increase the HP of their iceblock, but deal no damage to the enemy itself. Combine that with a long-lasting freeze and you could lock down an enemy for its entire duration instead of the turn or two it might take to break free.
I'm not crying. I'm offering a sacrifice to DarkGod in hopes he'll show favor to me.

It hasn't worked yet.

Delmuir
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Re: Full Necro concept… Pg1, now in add-ons section.

#90 Post by Delmuir »

Excellent points… I hadn't thought about the abuse of the wards in that way. That is way, way too overpowered, ha ha.

As for Hellflame… yeah, I would assume (still having access to the Ice category and Uttercold) that this would spit damage with the ice block. Also, what would you think about replacing Will o' the Wisp with Hellflame (or some variant)?

Ultimately, the theme isn't consistent and the skills are… unformed. Like I said, just kicking around ideas…

I'm kind of hoping to add another category as there are a bunch of neat ideas and potential combos kicking around. I just haven't figured out what just yet.

Update!

What if I combined part of Hellfire with Invocation of Decrepitude.

IoD reduces CURRENT life thus it can't ever actually kill anyone. However, what if… while IoD is active (as it affects all enemies in aura), should you kill any enemy, it produces a phantom akin to Hellflame? That'd be kind of neat and would make IoD more interesting and fun.

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