Celestial Resource Final Thread

[HousePet]

Corona would function the same as it does now.

[malboro_urchin]

Corona would function the same as it does now.

Thank you for the reply!

[T-Mick]

Sorry to hi-jack a thread, but this isn't totally off. Some of the talents in the twilight tree ("Jump-gate" and "Mindblast") have completely unthemetic and, honestly, dumb names. Changing them to, for instance, "Worm Hole" and "Vision of the Void" would please me greatly.

Also, Celestial resource management sucks and begs to be replaced with luminosity, so bump and all that jazz.

[Sradac]

I went with current because honestly I don't like any of these systems, they're all overly complex and require too much micromanagement by the player. Luminosity sounds decent for Anorithil, but what about Sun Paladin? They have no use for negative energy currently, and would have no use for negative Luminosity.

As much as I can't stand the game, I actually liked World of Warcrafts Balance system for the Druid. As you cast spells, it would shift your Balance towards either Lunar or Solar. Once you reach full Lunar or full Solar, your spells of the respective types get extra effects. Certain spells, like your massive nukes or massive heals reset your balance to completely neutral so you can't just spam an extra powerful nuke over and over.

Give celestials a single "Celestial" resource pool, but also give them a Balance meter that changes based upon what types of spells you use. This would work for Anorithil because obviously they have both, but it would also benefit Sun Paladins because even though their balance would constantly shift towards Solar, it would still get reset to Neutral when they use their big bad abilities.

[donkatsu]

I went with current because honestly I don't like any of these systems, they're all overly complex and require too much micromanagement by the player. Luminosity sounds decent for Anorithil, but what about Sun Paladin? They have no use for negative energy currently, and would have no use for negative Luminosity.

Sun Paladins don't get Twilight.

[Doctornull]

I went with current because honestly I don't like any of these systems, they're all overly complex and require too much micromanagement by the player.

Mine actually requires less.

[Sradac]

I think with yours it was just having two resources that behave radically different from each other. Solar is 1 point at a time, whereas negative can be multiple points. Except when they're not. Sometimes things use more or less solar or negative, sometimes they dont use any at all (like Corona).

Other classes that have more than one resource dont have more than one unique resource. If a class has stamina / mana, or equi / mana, or any other two those are pools shared across many different classes so you get used to them. Having two very unique resources tied to only 2 classes makes it really hard to learn them. The other unique resources with only a few classes with it would probably be Hate and Equilibrium, both of which are very very simple. Equi goes up as you use talents which increases failure chance. Hate drains over time and you generate it in combat.

It's one of the reasons I don't play brawlers because I dont like the combo system, at least not how its presented in the UI. Should I use this talent now? Do I want more combo points? Hell if I know, I just see the range of what this talent will do with combo points and not what will actually happen. Screw it, I'll just use grappling.

I'm only suggesting what I did because its simple and to the point. You have a celestial energy pool that would behave similar to mana / stamina / psi that all talents drain from, but depending on where your balance currently is it will either enhance or hamper talents depending if they are lunar or solar. Cast a whole bunch of light spells and your light spells will get bigger and bigger...cause there's more light and you are more aligned with it. Other way around with dark spells.

[Doctornull]

Having two very unique resources tied to only 2 classes makes it really hard to learn them.

To learn how the combo thing works, just play a Brawler, which is a popular and well-liked --

It's one of the reasons I don't play brawlers because I dont like the combo system, at least not how its presented in the UI.

Well, that explains that.

You're free to dislike combo point systems, of course, because opinions are subjective and therefore nobody can be wrong about their own preferences, but... if you say that combo points are "more complex" or require "micromanagement" then you are making statements which are factually incorrect.

Combo point systems have fewer possible states. From a gameplay perspective and a pure-math theoretical perspective, they're objectively less complex.

[donkatsu]

It's one of the reasons I don't play brawlers because I dont like the combo system, at least not how its presented in the UI. Should I use this talent now? Do I want more combo points? Hell if I know, I just see the range of what this talent will do with combo points and not what will actually happen. Screw it, I'll just use grappling.

This is the first time I have seen anyone say that the brawler combo system is overly complex. I think your opinion is a bit of an outlier here.

[Red]

In your last post, Sradac, you basically described Luminosity with one difference. Light spells make light spells less effective, draining the solar batteries or something, so you can't just spam light indefinitely and have to balance it either by splitting your work equally between light and dark, or just popping a few light generators every once in a while and blasting away otherwise.

Added to that, you say you want the Celestial system to behave like mana/stamina/psi. That's fine if you think that, but part of what makes ToME so interesting is that the classes are unique, and the varied resources are a big part of that. If you dislike the less standard resource systems, that's fine, play Mindslayer or Archmage. But the Celestial classes (okay, just Anorithil, Sun Paladin resource is much, much simpler) offer a different experience, and one that I and many others think it's worth exploring instead of just standardizing.

[Sradac]

Having two very unique resources tied to only 2 classes makes it really hard to learn them.

To learn how the combo thing works, just play a Brawler, which is a popular and well-liked --

It's one of the reasons I don't play brawlers because I dont like the combo system, at least not how its presented in the UI.

Well, that explains that.

You're free to dislike combo point systems, of course, because opinions are subjective and therefore nobody can be wrong about their own preferences, but... if you say that combo points are "more complex" or require "micromanagement" then you are making statements which are factually incorrect.

Combo point systems have fewer possible states. From a gameplay perspective and a pure-math theoretical perspective, they're objectively less complex.

Fewer possible options, but like I mentioned its the presentation thats obfuscated. Should I user uppercut when I have 2 combo points? Should I use it when I have 3? Does it make any difference? Right now, the talent just gives a range along the lines of "10%-30% chance to stun based upon combo points". If it would tell me what my CURRENT chance is based upon how many points are there, I can get behind that. If luminosity did that, where it clearly tells me what my current standing is with all of my options I'd be more ok with that.

[Red]

Then if/when someone starts drafting up code for Luminosity, let them know that. That's actually a very good idea, so the Twilight sustain will always let you see your current modifiers if you mouse over it and talents will reflect the bonuses in their description.

If your only issue with Luminosity is that it lacks tooltips, perhaps you should wait until there's a code to put tooltips in to speak ill of it.

If you've got other complaints, by all means mention them, but I suggest re-reading any system you comment on. I've made a few mistakes where I just plain spoke wrong because I'd only looked over the system a few days ago and my memory was hazy on that detail.

[Sradac]

It's usually better to voice opinions before work starts, rather than after. If someone proposes a new system, and their description is "its similar to combo points", and my personal experience with combo points is less than stellar, I will make it known. The whole purpose of this thread is to see what people think of these ideas. I think basing something on the combo point system will make it pretty unclear to players what is actually going on. If its based on combo point with certain modifications (such as the talent giving the current point effects), well that might be better.

[Red]

True enough. It just seems that tooltips is not really something inherent to the system, rather an addition to the system.

As for Doctornull's combo point system... Well, it's tied for dead last in the poll and not my personal choice either. While there aren't many votes, it looks like Luminosity is the system of choice, and part of why I made this thread is so that everyone involved could stop trying to figure out seperate systems and instead work on just one system that was most well-received. If you do wish to comment and suggest on the combo system, it might be better to do it on the original thread for that. (And if serious changes are made to the system, Doctornull can adjust his OP for the system and I'll change it on this thread's OP.)

So for Luminosity itself, do you have any specific issues with it, a general bad feeling about it, or what?

[Atarlost]

The problem with Luminosity is that it completely breaks the Sun Paladin. Paladins are designed around always being able to use the pos generating talents.

The insoluble problem with combo points is the Anorthil. The system doesn't make sense with negative energy. Not that I like what it does to the paladin either: the loss of the ability to gain positive from barrier on visibility (at range 10 or even higher with visibility extenders in open areas like most of the orc prides) or from barrier before visibility (before stairs, before opening a vault, before going around corners where heavy opposition is expected like the lever rooms in the orc prides) and the loss of pos gain from path of light laid as an escape are all too high a price to pay to get rid of autocasting. Not to mention the loss of granularity between large and small pos generators and consumers.

If autocasting is evil and must be destroyed just reduce bathe in light's generation rate and possibly increase the decay rate* so it's a net loser. Nothing else can safely be put on noncombat autocast to generate energy because having them on cooldown when you enter a fight can be hazardous.

* any increase in decay rate should probably be matched by a reduction in pos consuming talent costs equal to two or three turns worth of the increase in decay so it doesn't mess up the combat dynamics too much.