Forge Knight

[Dao Zeti]

Thanks alot for your thorough feedback, spiralzor!

My thoughts up to level 21
The class is extremely slow to start out at lower levels...the enchant weapons tree is pretty much the only draw of the class and all the early points seem weak until you get to the 4th skill
I cant see any reason why you would make enchant armor a starting tree, yet still lock it off at lvl 10 anyway.

(1) My own feeling is, that having armour forging locked at level ten indeed slows down progress maybe a bit too much. That talent tree doens't get useful until your mid-teens at all, and maybe I should have it start at level 1 as well. The reason, I didn't lock it away at all is that in my believe you shouldn't need to unlock core class talent trees with a category point, moreso if a class only has a few core class talents. <-- need more feedback here

(2) About the slow start: If you go for twohanded weapons or shield offense, you actually have a pretty balanced start setting somewhat equal to bulwarks or berserkers and can put the class-points you get until level ten to very good use. If you however spare points to invest into dual-techniques later on, progress during the first ten levels might indeed be odd. I locked dual-techniques away because of the immense offensive potential they offer, especially in combination with enchant/forging mechanisms, but wanted to leave the option in to specialize into them by sacrificing a category point (so, a race choice like cornac would allow for a dual-spec immediately from level 1 on upwards). I am up for more feedback however, if dual-techniques should be available for free from level 1 on upwards.

Also, there is no option to make a ranged weapon enchanter and since you can get dual weapons at lvl 10, theres no reason to stick with 2 handers UNLESS you lock yourself to greater weapon focus. the actual Forge knight attack talent line works fairly well, and has pretty much everything you need for melee.
I would have to say that for sheer versatility, that Enchanter still wins here...also enchanter can spit out AOES left and right with Magic Weapons tree and still does good damage bumping.

(3) Locking the class into a pure melee position is a fundamental design option. HousePets Enchanter is envisioned as a mage-hybrid, who excels both at range and at melee, and being a subclass of the mage tree it makes sense that it gets lots of AoE and magical range attacks. The Forge Knight is modeled after the melee warrior variants (Berserker, Bulwark) and as such shouldn't have access to range attacks. Two-Handed stack better with the Forge Knights line of combat skills (Searing Assault and Infernal Impact), as their damage output is linked to the mainhand weapon only and Fearless Cleave and Death Dance (Two-Handed Assault Talents) also stack pretty well with enhanced (forged) Two-Handers. I can't tell however if that keeps up with Flurry and the like from the Dual-Techniques Tree in the slightest.

Fix the above ranged oversight, and make the talent values from tier 1 to 4 a little more even, and it seems good to go..

(4) Easier said then done . I do want to provide a somehow even progress curve through talents, but at the same time don't want to risk all talents become one-point-wonders. Making armour forging a level 1 starting talent tree or opening up dual-techqniques to the start are things I could do, but would need more feedback for.

(5) Ranged Combat is mostly a no-go for this class - it is envisioned as a melee class. Options for circumventing ranged combat are integrated in the form of talents provided by forged weapons, so a bit luck dependant. They mainly come in the form of Blindside and Bone Grab - skills, that enable you to overcome distances to draw your opponents into melee combat, or Slime Spit and Acidic Spray, to lure them to you. Not sure if more needs to be done, relying on feedback here, too.

[Dao Zeti]

New Version is up. Dumped all basic talent trees from the technique category, gave Forge Knights access to three advanced talent categorys (Superiority, Battle Tactics, Bloodthirst) and added two new talent trees unique to the class. These integrate different combatstyles (2handed, dualwielding, shield & 1handed). Access to quick-weapon-switch (without spending a turn) makes shields favorable in certain situations, for opening moves or when the going gets rough, while twohanded weapon or dualwielding combat both shine for dealing damage.

All in all, the changes are pretty powerful and provide much more survivability and flexibility to the class in the early as well latter stages of the game, also in higher difficulties. The main limiting factors to the class are still a) stamina management and b) being melee and thus relying on mobility to deal damage.

[Red]

Three things.

1) Tridents do not forge properly, making a default dagger instead of any kind of trident. Is this intended (I have no kind of Exotic mastery) or is this a bug?

2) Is there any way to add a display of what item you'll get after forging, or at least what properties will remain? I'm not 100% sure what will end up left with the talent descriptions, so for now in the early game I'm hesitant to forge something good.

3) Could reforging be allowed? Reshape Weapons/Armors allows for multiple uses on the same item as you get more powerful, so could the Forge Knight have that added so you don't have to horad stuff until you get really high levels?

[Dao Zeti]

Three things.

1) Tridents do not forge properly, making a default dagger instead of any kind of trident. Is this intended (I have no kind of Exotic mastery) or is this a bug?

2) Is there any way to add a display of what item you'll get after forging, or at least what properties will remain? I'm not 100% sure what will end up left with the talent descriptions, so for now in the early game I'm hesitant to forge something good.

3) Could reforging be allowed? Reshape Weapons/Armors allows for multiple uses on the same item as you get more powerful, so could the Forge Knight have that added so you don't have to horad stuff until you get really high levels?

1) Ah yes, aside from artifacts, I believe tridents don't normally appear in zones(they have a special_rarity flag), which is why in most zones a forging attempt (rerolling the base item, in games terms) would result in an error. To prevent an error if an item could not be rolled, I decided to let it be rerolled as a dagger. I should be able to fix this however. The case is worse for whips, which have no defined base items for the different tiers (1-5), and also would be always rerolled as a dagger. With the next update, I will provide a solution for both cases, however.

2) Properties that will remain are explained in the talents (most properties). Exceptions are special use_powers from artifact weapons (only very few will be taken over), special_on_hits/crits from artifacts (mostly only those from non-artifact weapons will be transfered, to prevent possible bugs) and special properties from specific artifacts (like Tarrasque, Mercy, Wheel of Fate, etc.) won't be taken over either. So, if your skilllevel is around level 5, almost anything besides very special artifact abilities should be carried over.

3) Maybe I could add in an option to restore the original item, if you have a reforged golden (not orange) artifact. So, you could reforge certain artifacts as your level grows. Maybe I put some limit to it similar to how the wheel of fate works: can be restored every 3 levels. I will think about this.

Thanks alot for your feedback.

[Red]

1) Got it, thanks.

2) I'm referring to the more early game, before you manage to hit level 5 in your forging skills. Various things don't transfer and it might just be me, but going off the skill descriptions I'm not sure what exactly will make it and what won't. That will all go away once I hit 18, though, and get talent level 5.2.

3) Maybe I didn't make my idea clear. I don't mean a complete reforge, with new resistance bonuses for armor or damage bonuses for weapons or anything like that. I mean forging an already forged weapon to gain the raw, non-random stat boosts that will imrpove as you level. So if I forge an ordinary voratun longsword at level 45 and it gets +10 damage, +5 blight damage and +5 dark damage, I can reforge it at level 50 to improve it to +11, +6, and +6 respectively. It would not affect the damage types or any other random factor.

I want this because the forge once and never again system currently in place makes it so that if you get a really good Tier 5 randart at level 40, your best option is to leave it unforged for ten levels.

[Dao Zeti]

1) Got it, thanks.

3) Maybe I didn't make my idea clear. I don't mean a complete reforge, with new resistance bonuses for armor or damage bonuses for weapons or anything like that. I mean forging an already forged weapon to gain the raw, non-random stat boosts that will imrpove as you level. So if I forge an ordinary voratun longsword at level 45 and it gets +10 damage, +5 blight damage and +5 dark damage, I can reforge it at level 50 to improve it to +11, +6, and +6 respectively. It would not affect the damage types or any other random factor.

I want this because the forge once and never again system currently in place makes it so that if you get a really good Tier 5 randart at level 40, your best option is to leave it unforged for ten levels.

This is a good idea and I will implement this for damage, armor, defense, stats, saves, resists, +damage and inc_damage. It will be a separate, automatically learned talent ('Refinement' or some such). You will be able to upgrade those properties continuosly that appeared on the item when you forged it, but won't be able to add new properties from newly learned talents afterwards (so, if you crafted a helm without knowing how to add +liferegen, you won't be able to make it appear when you refine it later). Thanks for the great advice, I will probably have the changes done by tomorrow.

[Senteth]

Had some weird issues with permanently gaining random talents in the 'Reduced Abuse' version of the addon- I even made sure by taking all of my gear off to make sure I didn't have any temporary skills.

Not sure if it was a weird interaction between this addon and the multitudes of other addons I regularly use, or if it's a bug with the addon itself.

Disabled roughly 2/3rds of the addons I was using at the time and updated to the latest version of Forgeknight and I haven't seen the bug pop up again yet. I'll keep you informed if I can replicate it again.



As for the addon itself, I'm loving it so far. One minor quibble though is how you essentially have to choose between 2H weapon/sword and board, or daggers/daggers and shield due to the way the Weapons Mastery and Dagger Mastery generics are set up. (unless you want to sink 5 extra generics in order to max them both, which is a little extravagant, or cope with having greatly reduced damage output for one set of weapons)

With the recent changes to the Forgeknight's skills to allow all different weapon combos to work with the Forgeknight's skills in different ways, it might be cool to be able to switch to any useful weapon combo at will rather than being locked out of one group or the other.

Maybe take a nod from the Enchanter class and have some custom Forgeknight class/generic skills that perform much the same function as the Combat Training tree, but take precedence over them so that you can't stack benefits. Maybe add a bit of an extra Forgeknight twist to them to make them stand out from the ordinary Combat Training generics, or bundle them into some of the existing Forgeknight skills.

It's interesting how all stats are important for a Forgeknight in one way or another, although Strength/Dexterity/Constitution are obviously the most important ones to them. Willpower is used for much-needed Stamina, and Magic/Cunning are used to boost your Power Infused Weapons and Supernatural Armor Design talents. (they also help with boosting the strength of any temporary talents you might gain from your weapons/armor, which is also extremely helpful) The Forgeknight generics to help give you some extra Magic/Cunning help a little, but the class still feels a bit starved for stat points.

On another note, it might also be cool to have a locked class tree that lets you branch out even further in your crafting skills, working with belts, gloves, and boots. (possibly cloaks and leather armor/helmets too) Skills for forging gems into your equipment might be interesting and thematically appropriate as well, but that feels a little more like it's straying into the Enchanter's territory. Besides, if you want to buff your gear even further you could potentially pick up Stone Alchemy from an Alchemist escort.

[Red]

Thank you, Dao. I look forward to seeing the class get imrpoved.

Senteth, if you work like me you can safely ignore Willpower. I'm the kind of guy who focuses a ton on passives, so I have a grand total of one active offense skill. (Still low level, so that will change. Eventually.) I'm happy just getting my gear buffed like crazy and bumping everything to death.

[Dao Zeti]

Uploaded a new version, hopefully bug free (playtesting showed no errors). Tridents and whips can now be reforged as well. Items can be upgraded via a refinement-skill, golden artefacts can be restored once (after learning one of the tier 4 talents of the forging group) via a restore-skill. To get access to the skill that lets you upgrade your weapons, you need to put in a point into either of the tier 1 Armor or Weapon forging talents.

Had some weird issues with permanently gaining random talents in the 'Reduced Abuse' version of the addon- I even made sure by taking all of my gear off to make sure I didn't have any temporary skills.

Not sure if it was a weird interaction between this addon and the multitudes of other addons I regularly use, or if it's a bug with the addon itself.

Disabled roughly 2/3rds of the addons I was using at the time and updated to the latest version of Forgeknight and I haven't seen the bug pop up again yet. I'll keep you informed if I can replicate it again.

Couldn't reproduce this, but it would happen if two addons were using the same skill names (I doubt this happened). The only addon providing random talents I know of is 'chaotic race', but you would have known using it, of course.

One minor quibble though is how you essentially have to choose between 2H weapon/sword and board, or daggers/daggers and shield due to the way the Weapons Mastery and Dagger Mastery generics are set up. ... Maybe take a nod from the Enchanter class and have some custom Forgeknight class/generic skills that perform much the same function as the Combat Training tree, but take precedence over them so that you can't stack benefits.

Some choices regarding skillpoints spent for specialization need to be left in the game, or every game would play out roughly the same . Still, I don't think that dagger mastery makes that much of a difference if you go sword (or mace) + dagger - as physical offhand weapon damage doesn't need to be fueled that much to be competitive (procs and effects on hit + melee projection are more important).

On another note, it might also be cool to have a locked class tree that lets you branch out even further in your crafting skills, working with belts, gloves, and boots. (possibly cloaks and leather armor/helmets too) Skills for forging gems into your equipment might be interesting and thematically appropriate as well, but that feels a little more like it's straying into the Enchanter's territory. Besides, if you want to buff your gear even further you could potentially pick up Stone Alchemy from an Alchemist escort.

I'd rather leave that option to another class. If you were able to reforge more parts of your equipment, the class would become grossly overpowered as basically anything you find could be transformed into an uber-item.

Thanks for your very detailed feedback

[Jurriaan]

Code: Select all

fight: 	steel mail armour of command	thick linen cloak of Iron Throne	::	nil	BODY
fight: 	steel mail armour of command	drakeskin leather armour of command	::	nil	BODY
fight: 	steel mail armour of command	Wintertide Phial	::	nil	BODY
fight: 	steel mail armour of command	Feathersteel Amulet	::	nil	BODY
fight: 	steel mail armour of command	marksman's copper ring of blight (#RESIST#)	::	nilBODY
fight: 	steel mail armour of command	Ring of Growth	::	nil	BODY
fight: 	steel mail armour of command	reforged Unerring Scalpel	::	nil	BODY
fight: 	steel mail armour of command	undeterred pair of rough leather boots of speed	::	nilBODY
fight: 	forged iron plate armour	Grinyrath the iron pickaxe	::	nil	BODY
fight: 	forged iron plate armour	forged steel longsword	::	nil	BODY
fight: 	forged iron plate armour	Elilebeth the Hellsream	::	nil	BODY
fight: 	forged iron plate armour	Girdle of the Calm Waters	::	nil	BODY
fight: 	forged iron plate armour	Sunwilter the cashmere wizard hat	::	nil	BODY
fight: 	forged iron plate armour	thick linen cloak of Iron Throne	::	nil	BODY
fight: 	forged iron plate armour	drakeskin leather armour of command	::	nil	BODY
fight: 	forged iron plate armour	Wintertide Phial	::	nil	BODY
fight: 	forged iron plate armour	Feathersteel Amulet	::	nil	BODY
fight: 	forged iron plate armour	marksman's copper ring of blight (#RESIST#)	::	nilBODY
fight: 	forged iron plate armour	Ring of Growth	::	nil	BODY
fight: 	forged iron plate armour	reforged Unerring Scalpel	::	nil	BODY
fight: 	forged iron plate armour	undeterred pair of rough leather boots of speed	::	nilBODY
Lua Error: /mod/class/Object.lua:1168: bad argument #1 to 'pairs' (table expected, got boolean)
	At [C]:-1 
	At [C]:-1 pairs
	At /mod/class/Object.lua:1168 desc_wielder
	At /mod/class/Object.lua:1426 getTextualDesc
	At /mod/class/Object.lua:1669 getDesc
	At /mod/dialogs/ShowEquipInven.lua:49 on_select
	At /mod/dialogs/ShowEquipInven.lua:226 select
	At /mod/dialogs/ShowEquipInven.lua:90 on_select
	At /engine/ui/ListColumns.lua:436 onSelect
	At /engine/ui/ListColumns.lua:657 display
	At /engine/ui/Inventory.lua:290 display
	At /engine/ui/Dialog.lua:712 toScreen
	At /engine/Game.lua:163 display
	At /mod/class/Game.lua:1479 

I reforged an Armour of the Deep, and now I get crashes whenever I try to do anything with it in my inventory.
I certainly get deep feelings about the 17 dead weight in my inventory.....
I downloaded the addon form te4.org on 6td Dec, filesize 297222

Anyway to solve this?

[Dao Zeti]

I fixed this in the recent patch (found out today, that the breath-property isn't a simple boolean but a table - don't know why I didn't stumble across this earlier), but sadly for you, the damage is already done . Any action, which triggers the description-routine of the game (opening the inventory, mouseing over the item), will result in a lua-error.

[Jurriaan]

I fixed this in the recent patch (found out today, that the breath-property isn't a simple boolean but a table - don't know why I didn't stumble across this earlier), but sadly for you, the damage is already done . Any action, which triggers the description-routine of the game (opening the inventory, mouseing over the item), will result in a lua-error.

Ah well, i unzipped game.teag, found out which file referenced that item, removed that file, removed the item in the player file that pointed to the now deleted item, renumbered the rest of the inventory, zipped a new game.teag and I'm running again. I think I'm going to get the latest version...

[Red]

I am currently playing as a Prismatic Golem (from the New Gems addon) and I just got to artifact crafting my items. A greatsword gained Slime Spit which the Golem cannot use-it's off limits to Wild Gifts in the same way the Undead are.

Could it be set so you can only make items with abilities you can use? It doesn't make much sense that you can craft an ability but can't use it, and it'd help make sure every item is fully useful.

[HousePet]

I fixed this in the recent patch (found out today, that the breath-property isn't a simple boolean but a table - don't know why I didn't stumble across this earlier), but sadly for you, the damage is already done . Any action, which triggers the description-routine of the game (opening the inventory, mouseing over the item), will result in a lua-error.

Ah well, i unzipped game.teag, found out which file referenced that item, removed that file, removed the item in the player file that pointed to the now deleted item, renumbered the rest of the inventory, zipped a new game.teag and I'm running again. I think I'm going to get the latest version...

You can usually still transmog/drop the corrupted item without resorting to save hacking.

[Dao Zeti]

I fixed this in the recent patch (found out today, that the breath-property isn't a simple boolean but a table - don't know why I didn't stumble across this earlier), but sadly for you, the damage is already done . Any action, which triggers the description-routine of the game (opening the inventory, mouseing over the item), will result in a lua-error.

Ah well, i unzipped game.teag, found out which file referenced that item, removed that file, removed the item in the player file that pointed to the now deleted item, renumbered the rest of the inventory, zipped a new game.teag and I'm running again. I think I'm going to get the latest version...

You can usually still transmog/drop the corrupted item without resorting to save hacking.

I am glad to hear it worked that way - I didn't know however that you could still transmog it, thats good news.

I am currently playing as a Prismatic Golem (from the New Gems addon) and I just got to artifact crafting my items. A greatsword gained Slime Spit which the Golem cannot use-it's off limits to Wild Gifts in the same way the Undead are.

Could it be set so you can only make items with abilities you can use? It doesn't make much sense that you can craft an ability but can't use it, and it'd help make sure every item is fully useful.

Never thought about this, but yeah, I could build in a check to prevent wildgift talents appearing on forged items if the smith happens to be unnatural - and a similar check for followers of zigur. Good idea.

Edit: new version uploaded which checks if the crafter is too distant to nature / antimagic-based.