Order of zones: Insane/Madness

[Mankeli]

I searched around but didn't find much information about zone order for the higher difficulties. I've done a succesful insane run but don't really remember much about the early-mid game progression so I'm looking for advice rather than giving it.

Here is what I do on madness:

Trollmire (I kill Bill too, the layout is favourable if you got phase door/psychoport/scouting but naturally you can come back if Bill got some horrible talents. Also your Kill Bill -abilities heavily depend on what drops you gor from drowning) > Kor Pul (in alt version watch out for the boss) > Norgos' > Scintillating Caves > Rhaloren Camp > Scintillating Caves alt (aka the cramped up murder caves) > Heart of Gloom/Old Forest/Sandworm tunnels/Maze order depends on things. Sandworm has free exp via drowning, Old Forest maybe has the easiest monsters of tier-2 dungeons but usually spawns escorts which I've found to be pretty hard to save (meaning that I actually lose them), Heart of Gloom can be really easy or completely horrible depending on where the stairs spawn and if you got the shadow murder boss, maze has warshouts and monsters bosses can have over 6 K HP. Also the alt maze and especially the boss is hard even on normal so you probably want to do something else first. Seriously the alt boss is tough.

Personally, I like to do the Cursed Village quest right after drowning rares. This is probably only viable if you actually got some uniques/bosses and not just rares. With startscumming I've rarely had any problems dispatching the Cursed. With an archmage, the arena quest can be done after the Cursed Village. With melee characters I like to postpone it after Trollmire because 1) the slingers knockback can make things deadly and 2) the gladiator guy actually has pretty decent damage.

Random other observations: Bringer of Doom is really easy on madness, the monsters that spawn from the pedestals will most likely be weaker than Old Forest uniques for example and seemed to have only like 1 K HP. Intimidating caves on the other hand...all drakes had HP in the range of 7-8 K when I got this in Old Forest. Yeah.

Questions: At which point should one tackle Urkis and save the merchant from the Assassin Lord?

[cctobias]

Due to the high number of uniques and randbosses the order is much more fluid than other difficulties.

But there are a few things.

Trollmire and kor'pul should be your first two. They are easier, supposedly they spawnn less dangerous rare+, but either way they are reliably easier.

I usually attempt Norgo next, however you can easily get a randboss there that is very hard. I have gotten a randboss right at entrance to Norgo at least twice.

Heart of gloom depends a lot on which type. The Cursed type is very dangerous due to shadows. Not only are Withering things shadows extremely hard hitting but many other rare+ will summon shadows as well. Dreaming is a lot easier IMO.

Both Norgo and HoG seems to spawn a number of rares with psi-shields. Usually Kinetic, but sometimes the next one(Fire etc). The talent inflation makes this extremely problematic early on Madness as this can easily be cutting 100 off any damage you do. Whether this is an issue depends on build, its more of a melee issue.

Rhaloren is still very dangerous, the tempest lightning can hit for 300 damage, and if it crits you can be in serious trouble. Rhaloren in general is probably more dangerous than HoG (ignoring withering thing). But often HoG spawns things that make it harder. For whatever reason I have often wound up doing Rhaloren right in the middle, but its extremely dangerous. I think just running into less kinetic shielded guys was one reason for that. This probably depends alot on build. Since I was running axe kick, if I got up to them I was usually good. A build that did range stuff and killed slower, might find the area far more painful. Its always painful though.

Crystal caves is pretty good really as long as you can reliably dodge the spell they throw, otherwise the crystals hit really hard. And the fact that they are rooted helps alot.

For the most part besied TM and korpul the order you do it really is determined by what spawns. But I have often had the following order happen "organically" TM+KP-> try Norgo and leave -> check out HoG kill a few and leave -> Caves -> try Rhaloren 50/50 I do whole thing -> go back to Norgo and finish it -> go back to rhaloren and finish -> go back to HoG 50/50 I finish it. Basically its always various variations on this. I believe on my winner I actually had to go back to HoG at level 24 or so, withering thing's shadow mages hit really hard and there were like 3 other rares/uniques that summoned shadows in a large open room. I knew what was there, clairvoyance + conveyance FTW. If I had been able to actually get into the room and next to WT I would have killed him in T1 phase of things. But invariable I got mobbed by shadow mages before I could even phase door to him. On a previous try I got dreaming and finished it out. Shrug.

The tier 2 zones are basically same order you would do in any other difficulty, again depending on rand bosses. Usually I do OF and then Maze, but either way is fine. For my Madness runs since I was doing melee I left SW last and did daikara 3rd.

There is no good answer for T2 really. OF is "easier" but the bee/midge rare+ are very dangerous with the high gspeed. I am not real sure there is much difficulty difference between the t2s they all have nasty stuff. Either you die miserably in T2 or you don't, which zone kills you is fairly academic. Still I tend to do OF and maze first. For SWL in particular do it when you have targeted teleport/phase door if you can.

My experience with Trapped! is a little iffy. On one run I "gave up" (i.e. I didn't run out of lives because I was able to flee, but wasn't killing enough) on I actually scummed this some at about level 15. Its seemed extremely hard at leve l14 to 15 with an assassin lord that was like leve l40 and doing massive damage. On my I winner I avoided it until about level 24 or so and it was more reasonable. I would reccomend holding off on it if you can.

Don't do dark crypt on madness. I could certainly have done it at level 32 on my winner. But it was determined to give it to me at level 24. I actually scummeed this on my winner, as I wanted to try it out, anytime it triggered on main map I killed process and did my walk again. After about 30 times of having it trigger I gave up at level 28 and said screw it since this was purely for curiosity's sake. I would say don't bother, most builds are not mature enough at level 24 to handle it. And as far as I know there is no way to reliably avoid the trigger like there is for Trapped!. And of course there is the timer for saving melinda and hp inflation means this kind of sucks.

Another thing you can do in Tier 2 is go to Hidden Compound and use the slaves as cannon fodder if you need a level. If you get half the slaves on your side the zone is much more managable.

Also level 14 stormy derth is pretty easy, I was scared of it. But I am pretty sure the elementals are the same level as in Normal.

Beyond that its mostly how you want. I don't really do the extra zones as you get a lot of xp and extra loot in Madness.

If you can make past T2 then you should be fine just don't do Eleven ruins at level 30 or whatever unless you really want to see normal white monsters with 25-35k hp, in other words that place will have the huge jump in HP that the east has. So in other difficulties on a good build you can easily go into it out of depth but on madness there is almost no chance you want to deal with the literally 5x jump in HP, even with good defense your lack of offense means it takes forever. I say this because I went into there to get an alchemy ingredient and I was like WTF glad I only need to kill one mummy. Even with an extremely high damage build it took a while without a more matured equipment/stat profile.

As for cursed village I usually do that around 10 anyway so doing it after drowning is fine. Its a good place to do since the rares can drop artifacts and such, even if they are level 1 and not super leveled like Last Hope NPC. Its good loot and easy. Might not have many rare+ but you might as well do it.

I did Urkis after T2 and Nurn. Which is what I normally do. But as a melee build with axe kick and daze immunity Urkis wasn't that hard for me. Basically if you can do Daikara you should be ok. Alhtough this may vary. Urkis has certain tricks you have to be prepared for.

[Mankeli]

Ok, thanks for the info! Seems like we are on the same page on things, pretty much. The facts I was looking for especially were those kind of crazy HP jumps like intimidating cave (which I mentioned) and apparently Elven Ruins (which you mentioned, I haven't gotten so far yet on madness).

It's good to know that Urkis is doable after T2. What about Temporal Rift? You can't recall out from there right? Probably gonna skip that one/do it later than usually.

About Dark Crypt: If I'm purely interested in winning, I wouldn't enter it at any difficulty. Sure, you can clear it with a very good percentage on normal but what's the upside? I do it on normal anyways because I don't like leaving people to demons though. . When I've gotten it on insane/madness it's basically just a comedy routine: Laugh and click "leave carefully".

About Norgos' randbosses: My favourite T1 randboss of all time spawned there once. It was a summoner which is very bad on insane/madness but luckily summoners are usually pretty killable if their summons don't kill you first. However, this guy was also a solipsist. And the talent levels it had...thought forms 25, warhound 25 etc. That means that I would have been fighting against warhounds with over 420 strenght! On Norgos':2. Needles to say, I didn't even try.

[jaumito]

The facts I was looking for especially were those kind of crazy HP jumps like intimidating cave (which I mentioned) and apparently Elven Ruins (which you mentioned, I haven't gotten so far yet on madness).

You can add farportals to the list.

[cctobias]

Ok, thanks for the info! Seems like we are on the same page on things, pretty much. The facts I was looking for especially were those kind of crazy HP jumps like intimidating cave (which I mentioned) and apparently Elven Ruins (which you mentioned, I haven't gotten so far yet on madness).

It's good to know that Urkis is doable after T2. What about Temporal Rift? You can't recall out from there right? Probably gonna skip that one/do it later than usually.

About Dark Crypt: If I'm purely interested in winning, I wouldn't enter it at any difficulty. Sure, you can clear it with a very good percentage on normal but what's the upside? I do it on normal anyways because I don't like leaving people to demons though. . When I've gotten it on insane/madness it's basically just a comedy routine: Laugh and click "leave carefully".

About Norgos' randbosses: My favourite T1 randboss of all time spawned there once. It was a summoner which is very bad on insane/madness but luckily summoners are usually pretty killable if their summons don't kill you first. However, this guy was also a solipsist. And the talent levels it had...thought forms 25, warhound 25 etc. That means that I would have been fighting against warhounds with over 420 strenght! On Norgos':2. Needles to say, I didn't even try.

Can't help with temporal rift, I never even bothered with it. I think I zoned into it once on madness (on a non-winner) and I like moved once and like 4 time elementals did various things and I died if that helps.

Basically I consider TR a sort of extra thing that is harder than T2 and on Madness I am generally only doing extra things if they are easier. The only reason I did Nurn at all was for the vault, as I had specifically about 4 artifacts I wanted from Insane run with same build.

I literally did abosolutely nothing extra except hidden compound after t2, I believe. In fact I guess I could have skipped Urkis really. I have never actually skipped Urkis though. So I guess I did a little extra.

Well I should caveat this, all my madness runs have been for one specific build and that build is basically in a comfortable spot at level 28. So once I was there, and since this happens around when T2 is finishing, I felt little need for anything extra knowing I would be 50 well before prides was even done even on a Shalore.

The really noticeable HP jumps are basically Vor Armory (assuming this is first) and then going back east guardians and High Peak. There is also somewhat of a jump for Raknor. Raknor is not quite as nasty as Vor. Basically from after Dreadfell to first monsters in vor armor you can see like a doubling in HP. Ot something like that.

[Mankeli]

Re: Shadows and shadow mage talents in HoG

I checked their stats, upper limit for lighting (since its from Y to X damage) was over 700 points of damage. That is just insane, there are what, five of them + the boss itself. And that is if you manage not to attract other monsters at the same time.

Yeah, I have somewhat similar vague memories Temporal Rift being awful probably from my insane winner. On the first level you can't really move, the second level is cramped up and on any level you literally can't change levels to help grind monster one at the time. Moving, avoiding monster packs and changing levels are all basic tools of insane/madness characters so TR will be in the "maybe later" category.

[cctobias]

Re: Shadows and shadow mage talents in HoG

I checked their stats, upper limit for lighting (since its from Y to X damage) was over 700 points of damage. That is just insane, there are what, five of them + the boss itself. And that is if you manage not to attract other monsters at the same time.

Yeah, I have somewhat similar vague memories Temporal Rift being awful probably from my insane winner. On the first level you can't really move, the second level is cramped up and on any level you literally can't change levels to help grind monster one at the time. Moving, avoiding monster packs and changing levels are all basic tools of insane/madness characters so TR will be in the "maybe later" category.

Yeah they are painful, but combo kick gets rid of them when you have 5/5. The trick is getting to WT to use it...

I tried a few times to get up there in the early part of game but a shadow would pop in from nowhere take off my 650 points of shield and some health and I would phase door away. If I remember right I actually cleared HoG1 early then ran into a bear unique/boss I could not kill on 2, and came back after rhaloren to do then ran into the shadow room of death on HoG 3, finished rest t1 and eventually went back around level 22 partially because I forgot about it.

[preston]

Also your Kill Bill -abilities heavily depend on what drops you gor from drowning)

...

the monsters that spawn from the pedestals will most likely be weaker than Old Forest uniques

...

Hi,

By drowning do you mean Lake Nur?

And how do we get monsters to spawn from the pedestals?

Thanks,
Preston

[cctobias]

Also your Kill Bill -abilities heavily depend on what drops you gor from drowning)

...

the monsters that spawn from the pedestals will most likely be weaker than Old Forest uniques

...

Hi,

By drowning do you mean Lake Nur?

And how do we get monsters to spawn from the pedestals?

Thanks,
Preston

Drowning refers to drowning NPCs in the towns. This is mostly a Madness, and to some extend Insane, thing.

You target the bosses/uniques/rares that spawn as high level in towns and then harvest the gear. Generally for madness you need to do this to get a tier 5. The NPCs in lost hope spawn as level 50 guys and the bosses will drop about 8 things, often with a randart or two.

Madness is basically impossible as melee without drowning LH npcs for a tier 5. As you can tell by the damage things do and the HP they have, you need to do in the low 1000s of damage in t1 and be able to take around 800 (in some way, shield rune w/e) damage. So you make this possible by getting certain key equipment early.

Usually you start scum to get the right things.

Note that as you go down in difficulty this actually becomes less good since the guys in town are lower level and much few rare+ spawn. Thus for NM this is generally a waste of time especially since buy a Mindblast torque from Zigur is typically enough to get most ppl through t1 NM.

[Mankeli]

Ok, there definitely is a jump going from tier-2 to Urkis: Urkis has twice the amount of HP than Rantha. I would still suggest doing Urkis before Dreadfell because the stairs in Tempest Peak allow you to just kite monsters one at the time with HC tanks like a necromancer.

But maaan, overcoming that continuum destabilization is annoing, I've tried to teleport Urkis farther away like 15 times in a row now.

[supermini]

This is relevant only to insane. I've started opening Norgos on level 1, before going to towns, because I die too much due to damn randboss snakes. It sets the level lower so that at least they aren't level 18 by the time I'm ready to do it.

[cctobias]

This is relevant only to insane. I've started opening Norgos on level 1, before going to towns, because I die too much due to damn randboss snakes. It sets the level lower so that at least they aren't level 18 by the time I'm ready to do it.

Yeah its usually the snakes that are the issue in Norgo's. They very very often have serious kinetic shield on Madness and to some extent insane, they often do good damage and can be anywhere from fast to really really fast (with skate).

There is an idea that floats around that norgo is among the easier start zones, and this is sort of true. But it has certain key things that, to me , seem prohibitively dangerous making the zone itself on Insane+ have a low valleys of threat with high peaks of threat. Rhaloren is just plain dangerous, but Norgo's can actually block me more due to those damn snakes, and if you are playing roguelike the snakes can really suck since getting away from them is sometimes impossible with out a good teleport or something similar.

[Mankeli]

Don't forget the bees: I remember some mindslayer unique bee in Norgos that had something like 200 % global speed + 200 movement speed. It was fun times trying to avoid that. Snakes and bees can also make Old Forest tricky if they roll some of the horrible classes.

[Atarlost]

There is an idea that floats around that norgo is among the easier start zones, and this is sort of true. But it has certain key things that, to me , seem prohibitively dangerous making the zone itself on Insane+ have a low valleys of threat with high peaks of threat. Rhaloren is just plain dangerous, but Norgo's can actually block me more due to those damn snakes, and if you are playing roguelike the snakes can really suck since getting away from them is sometimes impossible with out a good teleport or something similar.

That's because on sane difficulties it is. Speed is less valuable with nothing productive to use it on and critters are generally designed to be balanced around bump attacks.

If the upper difficulties were actually intended to be balanced I'd say the amount of boost an enemy gets should be linked to tier because if the scariest things are the critters either the critters are too strong or the normals+ are too weak or both.

[Mankeli]

More observations about zones: Dreadfell seems to have about level 45 monsters, Ruined Dungeon and slave caves about the same or probably slighly less, Mark of The Spellblaze is about level 70 and on the Elven Ruins...wait for it...first thing encountered was a level 95 orc pyromancer with over 8 K health. Yeah.

So the order of zones I use in lower difficulties holds up pretty well here: RD, merchant and slave caves should be doable before Dreadfell and Spellplaze should be avoided for now. And like cctobias said, don't go into Elven ruins. Like for a long looong time.