Race+Class+Background(subclass?)

[Davion Fuxa]

That might work well but if pursuing this idea I'd maybe do away with starting locations. Something to note about the Backgrounds as well is that we could base it on the Meta-Classes. An example of what I'm sort of thinking:

• Warrior Meta-Class/Warrior Background -
  Starts with choice between Technique/Conditioning or Technique/Field Control at 'X' and unlocked if Meta-Class Warrior.
  -or-
  Starts with Technique/Conditioning or Technique/Field Control at 0.8 and unlocked if choosing Warrior Background.
  
  Rogue Meta-Class/Rogue Background -
  Starts with choice between Cunning/Survival or Technique/Mobility at 'X' and unlocked if Meta-Class Rogue.
  -or-
  Starts with choice between Cunning/Survival or Technique/Mobility at 0.8 and unlocked if choosing Rogue Background.
  
  Mage Meta-Class/Mage Background
  Starts with Spell/Divination at 'X' and unlocked if Meta-Class Mage.
  -or-
  Starts with Spell/Divination at 0.8 and unlocked if choosing Mage Background.
  
  Wilder Meta-Class/Wilder Background
  Starts with Wild-Gift/Call of the Wild at 'X' and unlocked if Meta-Class Wilder.
  -or-
  Starts with Wild-Gift/Call of the Wild at 0.8 and unlocked if choosing Wilder Background.
  
  Celestial Meta-Class/Celestial Background .....
  Defiler Meta-Class/Defiler Background .....
  Afflicted Meta-Class/Afflicted Background .....
  Chronomancer Meta-Class/Chronomancer Background .....
  Psionic Meta-Class/Psionic Background .....
  
  Adventurer Meta-Class/Default Background
  Starts with an Extra Category Point

As a general rule, if you start with say a Warrior class then you can't select the Warrior Background. Undead of course can't select the Wilder Background.

Some work might need to be done to make this idea work in that we may need a Defiler type of Escort and Afflicted Escort available; but it is worth noting that the idea with having separate Sun Paladin/Anorithil Escorts works well with this idea because it is possible to select your Background category. It could be possible to select Celestial/Light or Celestial/Chants if you so desire.

Some more work might have to be done on creating perhaps New Meta-Classes as well - nothing was used from the Alchemist Escort for example above. If perhaps someone really wants to start with Spell/Stone Alchemy then maybe we need something like....

• Manipulator Meta-Class/Manipulator Background
  Starts with Stone/Alchemy at 'X' and unlocked if Meta-Class Manipulator.
  -or-
  Starts with Stone/Alchemy at 0.8 and locked if choosing Manipulator Background.
  
  The Manipulator Meta-Class consists of the Class - Alchemist.
  Alchemist Escorts in Game no longer reward Spell/Staff Combat or Wild-Gift Mindstar Mastery - Those would become exclusive bonuses for Angolwen and Zigur.

Of course as well, some work would have to be done to make certain classes fit in their Meta-Class. To take the Shadowblade for example, they have access to both Cunning/Survival and Spell/Divination. To make them work they would have to lose Spell/Divination - or respectively lose Cunning/Survival and get shunted over to the Mage Meta-Class.

*****

Edit:

I figured I should include a selection example, so here's a couple:

A Player makes a character and choosing to make a Skeleton Archer. Archers are a part of the Meta-Class Warrior group and as such the player gets the option to decide whether to choose to pick up Technique/Conditioning or Technique/Field Control for his characters Class Background.

The player has beaten the game previously with a Dwarf Berserker, a Higher Archmage, and a Thaloran Wyrmic; which are part of the Meta-Class Warrior, Meta-Class Mage, and Meta-Class Wilder Groups respectively. As such he has access to choose the Warrior Background, Mage Background, and Wilder Background in addition to the regular Default Background on top of the one already chosen from the class.

Because of Restrictions however, Undead Races cannot choose to select the Wilder Background, and characters who have a class in the Meta-Class Warrior group cannot select the Warrior Background for their use. He is thus restricted to choosing either the Mage Background or the Default Background as his Outside Class Background choice.


*****

As a note, and just thinking about it now, it might also work to allow players to select a Background of the same type as their Meta-Class if there are at least two choices for the player to choose from for each Class Background. The player could simply choose one as his Class Background and then choose the another choice from his Class Background if one is available.

[Doctornull]

I don't think Metaclass works as a sorting mechanism. Just for example, Spell / Divination is suitable for:
- Arcane Blade (Warrior)
- Shadowblade (Rogue)
- Archmage and Necromancer (Mage)
- Stone Warden (Wilder)

Regarding your Alchemist background suggestion of making Stone Alchemy an option, that would allow new players to accidentally cripple their characters. Alchemists are the Mage class you start with, they're supposed to be difficult to - up. Don't let people cripple their characters. Stone Alchemy should not be optional for an Alchemist.

[Davion Fuxa]

If you started an Alchemist, Stone Alchemy would be the only choice to pick then for the Meta-class Manipulator (IE, Not Meta-Class Mage). That would solve that issue of new players accidentally crippling themselves.

If Arcane Blade and Shadowblade are better suited to starting with Spell/Divination (ie, over Technique/Conditioning or Technique Field Control for the Arcane Blade or Cunning/Survival or Technique/Mobility for the Shadowblade), they could be moved to Meta-Class Mage. Moving Arcane Blade wouldn't be much of a lost to them now as they would only be losing Cunning/Survival (they would lose Cunning/Survival anyways if staying in Meta-Class Warrior) and Shadowblade would lose also lose Cunning/Survival and having Spell/Divination instead unlocked instead of locked.

No real thoughts on the Stone Warden as I never played them. They would lose a lot though perhaps since Cunning/Survival (Meta-Class Rogue) and Stone Alchemy (Meta-Class Manipulator) would be lost, but that just means they would be a good candidate to look at for making new Generic Categories - going by bpat's old guide they apparently suffered Mobility problems so something akin to a Stone Wardens Acrobatics Tree might be worth looking into.

Some more rearranging work might have be done with classes as well but I think the concept works fairly well and actually makes the Meta-Classes mean something more then just a grouping class types under headings.

[Doctornull]

Some more rearranging work might have be done with classes as well but I think the concept works fairly well and actually makes the Meta-Classes mean something more then just a grouping of a much of class types.

No, because addons.

You cannot control what other people put in the meta-classes.

Nor can you control the creation of new meta-classes.

Addon classes enhance and benefit the game.

So find another mechanism, like the one that I proposed, which works with everything that currently exists, and everything that could exist in the future.

[Red]

Or do as Davion suggests and assume players aren't total idiots. Unless I'm badly mistaken, most new players aren't going to download and try a ton of addon classes, nor are there any addon classes I know of that would be seriously hurt by losing Stone Alchemy. The only players who would be hurt by this are players who are trying an addon class and don't learn enough about it to realize they need a category they got rid of.

While I fully support the removal of totally bad choices, ones that no one in their right minds would pick, I don't believe you should remove a good choice simply because there might be an addon that re-opens this dead choice. I like to think we ToME players have a brain apiece and can steer clear of these, with the only players who might do it simply out of unfamiliarity (new players) helped along by Davion's modification.

[Davion Fuxa]

With each update there is a chance of addons becoming broken or not working. If the addons no longer work then they simply have to be updated - end of story, that's how addons work.

Apologies if that means more work for you, but I prefer the game get better before worrying about 'enhancing' my experience.

[Doctornull]

With each update there is a chance of addons becoming broken or not working. If the addons no longer work then they simply have to be updated - end of story, that's how addons work.

Apologies if that means more work for you, but I prefer the game get better before worrying about 'enhancing' my experience.

But you are proposing changing the whole game just to shoe-horn the existing categories into your new mechanic.

Why force the base game and all addons to change?

I mean that seriously, you're proposing that everything (addons and base game) be forced to change for no good reason, since the alternative -- NOT SHOEHORNING -- is blatantly available.

If the choice was "me do more work OR worse game" then that's a valid point, but there is no such choice. The thing you're asking for is "do more work for no reason OR not do more work", and that's just a silly choice.

[Red]

Except the change proposed will make meta-classes matter. Literally the only thing that matters at the moment on meta-class is that undead can't be Wilders. This will make meta-class affect abilities, give more choices. Even if it's more work for new classes, addon or vanilla, it will give those classes more choices.

Harder work for more choices sounds like a fair trade-off for a game that wants to be good.

[Davion Fuxa]

If the choice was "me do more work OR worse game" then that's a valid point, but there is no such choice. The thing you're asking for is "do more work for no reason OR not do more work", and that's just a silly choice.

Then I guess I need to argue that it is indeed for the better.

The benefit of tying the Background Category choice with the Meta-Classes is that it gives them structure beyond just being labels. The premise behind my idea is that players can expect certain Meta-Classes to have specific and easily identifiable traits that can help define them in playing a certain way. This could be expanded on perhaps more with other intrinsic features later on (Maybe Warriors have increased Heal Mod or Rogues could have increased Defense, whatever). Ultimately this gives a little more depth to an existing feature - instead of trying to add a new and similar feature.

[Doctornull]

If the choice was "me do more work OR worse game" then that's a valid point, but there is no such choice. The thing you're asking for is "do more work for no reason OR not do more work", and that's just a silly choice.

Then I guess I need to argue that it is indeed for the better.

The benefit of tying the Background Category choice with the Meta-Classes is that it gives them structure beyond just being labels. The premise behind my idea is that players can expect certain Meta-Classes to have specific and easily identifiable traits that can help define them in playing a certain way. This could be expanded on perhaps more with other intrinsic later on (Maybe Warriors have increased Heal Mod or Rogues could have increased Defense, whatever). Ultimately this gives a little more depth to an existing feature - instead of trying to add a new and similar feature.

I think you're correct in saying that Meta-Classes do have easily identifiable traits, but often the majority of those traits are flavor rather than mechanical.

Like the Mage meta-class is basically "I want to play a caster-feeling guy", without much overlap between the skills of an Alchemist vs. an Archmage except that they are both pretty caster-y.

Similarly, there's just not much overlap between a Bulwark, a Berserker, and an Archer.

I do dig that it could be cool to put everything into new meta-classes which do matter mechanically, but I don't see any reason why that HUGE change must be glued onto background trees.

[Davion Fuxa]

Another reason I can give is changing the value of the categories - which also corresponds to the value of Escort Rewards.

To try and base what I'm getting at, I'll try to use the sort of suggestion you gave. I'll assume a Cursed Escort is made available for rescue in game and all characters can get Spell/Stone Alchemy from completing goal 'X' in game. So we have the Explorer(Default) and subsequent Dreamer, Visionary, Penitent, Blessed, Wilding, etc. backgrounds to choose from.

The thing about what I'm suggesting is making the associated background categories have a special status to them - that being that they are off-limits to class design. To elaborate, players choose from these background categories when designing their character to make use of them as a bonus to everything else the class has to offer. This makes them very similar to gaining category rewards from Escorts - which some players have established they feel have increased value; something which is bit of a detriment. Designing the categories to work this way however helps to dilute the value of Escort Rewards because players can have the option of selecting the specific category reward immediately upon character creation.

Jumping to my example from your original concept which I extended with the special status concept, another dimension in the form of those categories being connected to Meta-Classes helps to also give value where once their was none - as I already presented as the reason in my last reply to the thread. The additional dimension of adding two background categories helps to further dilute the value of Escort Rewards.

Also of note is that my idea allows for Alchemist Escorts to exist as is for the purposes associated with Spell/Stone Alchemy.

[Doctornull]

Another reason I can give is changing the value of the categories - which also corresponds to the value of Escort Rewards.

To try and base what I'm getting at, I'll try to use the sort of suggestion you gave. I'll assume a Cursed Escort is made available for rescue in game and all characters can get Spell/Stone Alchemy from completing goal 'X' in game. So we have the Explorer(Default) and subsequent Dreamer, Visionary, Penitent, Blessed, Wilding, etc. backgrounds to choose from.

The thing about what I'm suggesting is making the associated background categories have a special status to them - that being that they are off-limits to class design. To elaborate, players choose from these background categories when designing their character to make use of them as a bonus to everything else the class has to offer. This makes them very similar to gaining category rewards from Escorts - which some players have established they feel have increased value; something which is bit of a detriment. Designing the categories to work this way however helps to dilute the value of Escort Rewards because players can have the option of selecting the specific category reward immediately upon character creation.

Jumping to my example from your original concept which I extended with the special status concept, another dimension in the form of those categories being connected to Meta-Classes helps to also give value where once their was none - as I already presented as the reason in my last reply to the thread. The additional dimension of adding two background categories helps to further dilute the value of Escort Rewards.

Also of note is that my idea allows for Alchemist Escorts to exist as is for the purposes associated with Spell/Stone Alchemy.

I don't understand most of what you're saying here, sorry. I'm sure you're saying good stuff, I just can't figure out what you mean.

The thing about diluting the value of escorts, though: that's true and in some ways intentional. The value of some escorts (e.g. Anorithil to get Celestial / Light for undead Archmagi) is so high that people either restart, escort-scum, or use addons like Succor to guarantee that specific escort will show up. This would allow you to not scum, restart, or use another addon to guarantee that one escort.

But in trade for that, they have to give something up (in that example, they'd give up Spell / Divinations). Now they may hope for a Seer escort to get that tree, or at least to get some points in Arcane Eye.

About the rest -- sorry, could you re-phrase? I'm trying to figure out where you're agreeing or disagreeing with me, and I just can't figure it out.

Thanks.

[tilkau]

If I understand the concept you are promoting correctly, Davion, I want to suggest you alter it slightly to work like DCSS, in that you could pick whatever you wanted, but some metaclasses were 'recommended' and others were not (not being recommended being the default state), representing the difference via different text colors, but not actually preventing the user from selecting non-recommended metaclasses.

Assuming that you can set up a simple 'registry' system[1]
to support that, this would allow the 'you probably don't want to do this combo' distinction to be established (and altered by any addon). Without breaking any existing classes or races at all, whether they are part of the core game or part of an addon.

[1] Basically three functions, with a standard lua table backing them:
- recommend(combo)
- discommend(combo)
and
- is_recommended(combo)
* Combo would be a race:class:metaclass string such as '*:Alchemist:Manipulator', where '*' means 'any'. The metaclass would always have to be explicit (ie. '*' wouldn't be a valid value for metaclass)
* At least one of class and race would have to be non-* (so you could recommend a metaclass for an entire race, an entire class, or a specific race+class combo).
* That's about as much thinking as I'm willing to do on this before this discussion progresses further. Please feel free to tell me if it is not possible -- I know Lua well but am not that familiar with exactly how ToME's API works.

[Red]

What I'm hearing is that he wants to make some things metaclass unique. Certain generic categories are no longer something Archmages have or something Summoners have, but something that Metaclass: Mages has, or Metaclass: Wilders. A constant throughout the entire metaclass, something that makes it matter instead of just a convenient label.

[tilkau]

What I'm hearing is that he wants to make some things metaclass unique. Certain generic categories are no longer something Archmages have or something Summoners have, but something that Metaclass: Mages has, or Metaclass: Wilders. A constant throughout the entire metaclass, something that makes it matter instead of just a convenient label.

Oh. Well, if that is the case, that's fundamentally unscalable and incompatible with existing systems. It requires you to have a level of control over every single class in the system, including any addon classes. That's just not gonna happen.