An Idea For Fixing Stair Scumming

[Red]

Whenever you exit and re-enter a level, all living monsters go up by one level per time re-entering. (First time in, normal levels, second time in, increase levels by one, third time, increase levels by two for a total of three, ad nauseum.) It won't stop all stair scumming, but it will stop any kind of excessive amounts without harming ordinary gameplay too badly. While I do occassionally leave a level unfinished and come back, I've never taken more than two trips unless I'm stair scumming. (Usually on the Yeek starting dungeons, since anywhere else I've got tools to handle it.)

Does anyone routinely leave levels unfinished and come back later in a non-scum manner, enough to make this an issue? And, assuming experience gains and item drops are treated as if they are their original level and not their inflated level, would this be open to abuse in any way?

[Faeryan]

Whenever I try to tackle higher difficulties or am playing a challenging char (Yeeks for ex) I tend to scour different equal tier dungeons for easier prey. If I happen to run to a rare monster I might flee and do other places where I feel safer.

Personally I think the current way is rather nice (monsters heal to full) and works at least for me.

[cctobias]

This would just make zig zag tunnels even more super powered. Also remember you can't stair scum High peak since the stairs disappear. So in the end if you can't win without stair scumming you can't win.

I dunno, I know some people dislike stair scumming and I can understand why, but I haven't really seen it as a huge problem in TOME4 specifically.

[Red]

It's part of a talk on positive and negative energy, and the potential abuse involving stair scumming. Though I do agree it's not a major issue, but I think the game would be better off without it. Though perhaps add in allowances for people like Faeryan who flee with good reason. Make it so it only happens if you return without completing a different floor, so if you find Murgol's Lair too hard and beat level 1 of Ritch Tunnels, Murgol's Lair won't level up?

As for Cctobias, what exactly are you talking about? I saw zig-zag tunnels mentioned a few times, like on Mex's guide, but I'm not clear at all on what that tactic really is.

[Lyoncet]

Zig-zag tunnels refers to the player digging, well, zig-zagging tunnels to engage enemies in. That way, you can ensure only 1 creature at a time can see you, so you can engage them one at a time and don't have to worry about ranged attacks or statuses.

Is stair scumming popping back a level and resting back to full?

[Red]

That is exactly what stair scumming is. Though how much of an issue it is depends on how much you're abusing it-I've done it a few times for convenience's sake (had enough defenses to bump everything in the room to death, but scummed to use abilities and clear it faster) and for neccessity (Isle of Rel), but of those times only the latter is really abuse.

As for making them overpowered... Well, they're already a pretty useful tool, this would just make them required if you scum since you can't handle the damage from more than one enemy. I actually did think about abusing this to gain a lot of extra XP and higher level loot, which is why all loot and XP should treat the enemies as if they're their base level. So the only abuse I can see of this would be if you really really want a challenge, but don't want to go to Madness or something.

[donkatsu]

Level has a really minor effect on how dangerous something is-- a level 60 stone troll is still not going to be as threatening as a level 20 solipsist rare. In legitimate situations, I don't think this change will impact much of anything. But a non-zero stacking cost to stairscumming finally introduces the possibility, however slim, that going back up the stairs can put you in a worse situation before, which may lead to more interesting decision-making.

+1.

[Faeryan]

What if the stairs would not allow returning before certain amount of turns has passed? This would prevent the "kill one, flee to heal" scumming which I believe is the issue.

[Red]

That'd help, but you'd also have to disable the Recall effect on level change. Otherwise, activate Rod of Recall, wait 35-39 turns depending on how many attacks you want to make, go down a level and leave soon after. It might sound damn inconvenient, but as Donkatsu pointed out in another thread, tedium as a balancing factor is just plain bad design.

So just have a 20 turn Other category debuff that prevents you from using stairs or benefiting from the Rod of Recall. Come and go all you want, but if you run into a dangerous group of enemies at the bottom of the stairs, you've gotta deal.

This also makes sense in-universe. As it stands now, stairs are basically teleportation devices that only you can use, with monsters never following and never attacking you as you climb the (possibly quite tall, since I've seen dragons in caves, so the ceilings have to be higher than them) stairs.

[Marson]

Along with preventing the drowning of NPCs, I wouldn't want to see any of these kind of changes go in until Insane received an adjustment to how difficulty is scaled across levels. The starts can be difficult. Plus there's no way to scout down the stairs like the way you can with Arcane Eye, etc. I think it's perfectly fair to take a peek in and say "no thanks—I'll come back later."

[Red]

Slight modification, then. You receive the debuff immediately after you take any action that takes a turn. This lets you precast Arcane Eye on yourself if you want to vision bonuses it gives as an Archmage, or lets you precast Track for anyone who has it, run down the stairs and gives you an immediate choice to stay or go. As soon as you decide to do anything more than scout the staris area, you're commited.

[Ragnarok]

There should't be a solution to "stair scumming" that could harm people unaware of it.

Monster going up a level could ruin a normal players game because they hop in and out a few times to sell items or some other reason.

Honestly if anything just make it like other games and they could follow you up the stairs.

[Pigslayer]

Can you still stack a bunch of damage over time aoe effects through stair-scumming? I haven't tried it in awhile.

[Atarlost]

There should't be a solution to "stair scumming" that could harm people unaware of it.

Monster going up a level could ruin a normal players game because they hop in and out a few times to sell items or some other reason.

Honestly if anything just make it like other games and they could follow you up the stairs.

Since this forum software doesn't allow likes I must resort to Quote For Truth.

Stairscumming is only a problem if you're treating a single player game like a competition. Once monsters were made to heal it stopped being a problem. If stacking terrain effects is possible that's a bug with DoTs, not a problem with the behavior. And it's not a complicated bug to fix: just don't store them when saving a level after the player leaves.

Always you should fix the bug, not punish the behavior. Sometimes it's required by the geometry of level entry: When you enter a room you see enemies as they come into LoS and in most dungeons can be faced in a confined doorway, and around a corner as well if you have a movement infusion or controlled phase door or a similar talent like dream walk. When you enter a level enemies can suddenly be adjacent to you and surrounding you on all sides; five sides even for levels that always have exits on the edges. Until seamless level transitions are implemented stairscumming is a necessary kludge. I very much doubt seamless level transitions will ever be implemented.

[donkatsu]

You could just teleport if you get a bad start. Every character that wants to win should have a teleport anyway.

Stairscumming is only a problem if you're treating a single player game like a competition.

Could you elaborate on this? I'm afraid I don't understand.