Phasing Out Combat Training & Combat Veteran

[Red]

I stand corrected.

That being said, I've honestly never had too much survival trouble with a light armor class that would benefit from these. I believe I played Brawler after the recent rework, and I didn't have much trouble surviving, and the other classes I've played as without heavy armor are no armor classes, like Alchemists.

So I guess I pose the question to those with more experience in light classes, especially as compared to heavier armored classes. Do light armor classes need defensive buffs? And, if they do, is it best if they get it through armor?

[brown recluse]

Do light armor users even rely on their armor for survivability anymore? It seems to me like they use either range or some other mitigation mechanic that kinda makes their armor kinda irrelevant. Defense seems inferior to armor since it works on the same system as saves and can be unreliable.

If we're looking for more generics to add to warrior types, they could have full light/heavy/massive armor trees to address some of the deficiencies in each (and possibly give people a reason to use heavy armor instead of it just being a stopgap for massive armor). More work may need to go into meaningfully differentiate between them, though.

Combat veteran needs help, but it's not beyond saving. All of the talents need scaling in order to stay relevant into the endgame, and unending frenzy is pretty useless and doesn't really fit with the endurance theme of the tree.

[SageAcrin]

Things I'm getting out of this;

A: No one likes Unending Frenzy very much, and a simple buff to Quick Recovery and removal of it would be fine with nearly everyone, if the replacement talent was good.

B: No one likes how linear Combat Training is, but people don't all like phasing out the talents because it causes a lot of melee fighter power creep that is unnecessary.

(B-2: My own thought here; And it causes a lot of very weird problems with enemy design.)

C: People don't really like Light Armor not being a competitive choice with Heavy Armor.

(C-2: It's not meant to be. Mages are not all meant to have good passive defenses. Period. It's meant to be a flaw-they're entirely active, don't screw up or you're paste. Light Armor and Robes don't have a differentiation in the code.)

A seems simple enough to fix, though there's so many ways you can attack it that I'm not sure what I'd go with.

However, for B, I like the idea of rolling Dagger Mastery into Accuracy as a start-it makes Dagger Mastery more useful in general, and allows people to save points by going Daggers. I believe this was originally Edge's idea.

That makes both Dagger Mastery and Weapon Mastery less linear.

For the rest... hum.

How about this;

-Defensive Training
-Flexibility
-Weapon Finesse
-Empowerment


Defensive Training: Grants Armor Training benefits as current. Also grants Thick Skin benefits. Thick Skin benefits are halved if you are not wearing heavy armor.

Flexibility: Grants movement speed, defense, 1 or 2% -fatigue per level, and a small resistall bonus. Bonuses are lowered based on your fatigue(Something like Fatigue*4% lowering, so 22%~ fatigue would lower it to a minimum 10% normal benefits.).

Weapon Finesse: Combined Dagger Mastery and Combat Accuracy effects. Dexterity gives a small amount of extra physical power.

Empowerment: Weapon Mastery. Strength gives a small amount of extra accuracy.

The idea is that the talents are still required, but now choices for gear and for how much you take them up to vary much more wildly based on class and build.

Thoughts?

[Delmuir]

I like Sage's solution… so that's my vote, for what it's worth.

[HousePet]

Similar concept to above, but makes different stats give interesting choices. Also removes the split between normal weapons, knives and exotic weapons.


Revised Armour Training:
Heavy Armour Mastery: Increases armour from all equipment and armour hardiness. Requires strength.
Mobility: Increases movement speed and chance to dodge projectiles. Requires dexterity.
Thick Build: Increases resist all and decreases fatigue. Requires constitution.
Magic Resistance: Allows you to use a fraction of your armour as reduction against all sources of spell based damage and gives a chance to avoid dispel.
Character Armour: Allows you to use a fraction of you armour as reduction against all sources of mind based damage and gives resistance to resource drain. Requires willpower.
Light Armour Mastery: Increases defence from all equipment and crit resistance. Requires cunning.

Revised Weapon Training:
Weapon Mastery: Increases accuracy and minimum damage. Requires strength.
Weapon Finesse: Increases crit chance and physical power. Requires dexterity.
Brute Force: Weapon hits can knock enemies off balance. Requires constitution.
Arcane Arms: Increases proc damage. +staff damage. Requires magic.
Willful Weapons: Increases armour piercing. +mindstar damage. Requires willpower.
Fancy Fencing: Allows parrying and counter attacks. Requires cunning.

[Davion Fuxa]

Combat Training being broken down by stat looks like a potential winner to me. I'm not sure we would need separate categories for weapons or armor as in Housepet's example - simply put we could have something like:

Glorius Knight - Strength
Sharp-eyed Pursuer - Dexterity
Hardened Wanderer - Constitution
Arcane Artificer - Magic
Focused Mystic - Willpower
Experienced Veteran - Cunning

[HousePet]

The split between weapon and armour was mainly due to caster's generally not needing weapon mastery type talents. So it makes it neater.

[Doctornull]

I really like the idea of incorporating more stats. That's brilliant and we should go that way.

However, I don't want it to be something as simplistic as "This Stat -> This One Talent Forever".

So maybe something like... three Str talents, each of which benefits from two other stats. Two Dex talents, each of which benefits from two other stats.

Weapons Mastery (level prereq only): mastery for all normal weapons (axe/sword/mace, dagger, shield, unarmed, bow and sling). Best coverage. Worst +% damage & phys power bonus; gains Accuracy bonus from Cunning and crit chance from Dexterity.

Military Mastery (Str): mastery for axe/sword/mace and shield; Fatigue reduction from Con; flat damage reduction from heavy+ armor which scales with Dexterity; physical crit bonus which scales with Magic.

Brutal Mastery (Str): mastery for axe/sword/mace and trident; gain Stamina when you crit or kill based on Magic; gain Mental and Magic saves based on Constitution; accuracy bonus from Cunning.

Berserk Mastery (Str): mastery for axe/sword/mace, dagger and trident; gain Stamina when you suffer damage based on Willpower; gain flat damage reduction based on Dexterity in light or heavy armor.

Agile Finesse (Dex): mastery for dagger and whip; gain crit reduction based on Cunning and "parry" defense bonus based on Strength. Incorporates Dual Training bonuses, perhaps replaces some Dual Training talents.

Agile Flexibility (Dex): mastery for dagger, bow and sling; free weapon swap; ranged defense and spell save from Cunning; crit reduction from Willpower; stamina regen from Constitution.


... or something.

[Red]

So all told, you're looking at 18 skills in that category. That seems a wee bit excessive. Plus I noticed some overlap in your abilities, since two of the three Strength skills had secondary Constitution benefits.

I think a blending of the two ideas would be better-stick to two trees, one for defense and one for offense, each with six abilities that require a certain stat, and give them extra bonuses based on a second (and possibly third) logical stat. Physcrit from Magic, for instance, just seems silly to me on a lot of builds (an Antimagic Beserker would be gaining additional crit from magical talent. Logic), so it'd make more sense to scale that to Cunning or Dexterity.

[Doctornull]

So all told, you're looking at 18 skills in that category. That seems a wee bit excessive

The hell are you smoking? Those six I posted are the category. There are not another twelve secret, invisible talents hiding in my post.

Plus I noticed some overlap in your abilities, since two of the three Strength skills had secondary Constitution benefits.

Yep, intentional.

Each primary build should have a choice between two (or more) reasonably good talents.

[Red]

The ending made me think you had more skills planned that you hadn't had time to come up with yet, three for each stat with secondary and tertiary modifiers. That's my mistake.

With your abilities, there are just three things I'd like to say for now.

1) Again, Magic giving physical critical bonuses is just kinda weird for anybody except the couple of magic/weapon blended classes. Cunning would make more sense.

2) Using Military and Berserk Mastery, you can gain two sets of flat damage reduction from heavy armor, both of which scale with Dexterity. That's a pretty damn potent combination and could probably be tweaked.

3) Agile Flexibility's instant swap seems like a bit much, especially since it comes from Dexterity. Most weapon using classes gain good benefits from Dexterity even if it's not a main stat, so it'd be very easy for them to aquire this ability with a single generic and enjoy free weapon swapping forever. Admittedly, it's probably not going to overpower any class just from this, but it seems like it's begging to be a one point wonder for a lot of classes.

[Davion Fuxa]

I'll throw in another idea then for mixing in stats with combat training -

• Combat Training Category
  
  Equipment Training - Strength & Constitution - No Magic - Improves Overall Weapon Damage & Reduces Enemy Critical Chance
  
  Glorious Knight - (Strength + Dexterity + Constitution + Willpower) - Improves Armor Penetration & Increases Armor
  Daring Duelist - (Strength + Dexterity + Constitution + Cunning) - Improves Defense & Increases Critical Chance
  Shrewd Tactician - (Strength + Constitution + Willpower + Cunning) - Increases Movement Speed & Increases Accuracy
  
  Arcane Training - Magic & Willpower - No Dexterity - Improves Resistances & Reduces Fatigue
  
  Stubborn Battlemage - (Strength + Constitution + Magic + Willpower) - Improves Overall Weapon Damage & Reduces Enemy Critical Chance
  Skillful Spellblade - (Strength + Magic + Willpower + Cunning) - Increases Health and Resource Regeneration & Increases Resistance Penetration
  Knowledgeable Sage - (Constitution + Magic + Willpower + Cunning) - Increases Resistance to Resource Drain and Dispel Attempts & Increases Resources
  
  Mobility Training - Dexterity & Cunning - No Constitution - Improves Defense & Increases Critical Chance
  
  Masterful Blademaster - (Strength + Dexterity + Willpower + Cunning) - Increases Attack Speed & Increases Parry and Counterattacks
  Deceitful Trickster - (Strength + Dexterity + Willpower + Magic) - Improves Resistances & Reduces Fatigue
  Deadly Infiltrator - (Dexterity + Willpower + Cunning + Magic) - Improves Detection & Increases Global Speed

Essentially, the idea is about having multiple types of Combat Training 'Talents'. These Talents broken down by two primary stats with a third anti-stat. The Talents themselves are broken down into three elements and the benefits vary depending on what the players stats look like.

If the player has the following stats - 40 Strength, 38 Dexterity, 10 Constitution, 15 Magic, 18 Willpower, 8 Cunning, and invests 2 points into Assassin Training and 1 point into Fighter Training:

• Assassin Training has Dexterity and Cunning as primary stats. The players Strength and Willpower stats are his highest stats after those two stats. He therefore benefits from Masterful Blademaster line of buffs.
  
  Fighter Training has Strength and Constitution as primary stats. The players Dexterity and Willpower are his highest stats after those two stats. He therefore benefits from Glorious Knight line of buffs.

After it is determining what the player gets in benefits, the stats are added together depending on the benefit.

[HousePet]

Perhaps my above suggestion should be "scales with" instead of "requires"?

My intention with regard to the weapon training talents is to remove weapon mastery entirely, as all it does it penalise some builds by making them need to invest in more than one mastery talent.
It certainly doesn't add any meaningful choices to the game.
Differentiating weapons based on what talent they require is bad too.

For a berserker focussing in strength, my system would instead of investing in combat accuracy and weapons mastery, they would invest in just weapons mastery. As this doesn't give a physical power bonus, this is a bit weaker to start with but it does have a smaller cost. By late game, the diminishing returns makes the loss much smaller and you will then have invested in other stats so those talents could then be used effectively.

A dex focussed rogue works in a similar way. They already get accuracy from dexterity and they get the physical power they need for damage and debuffs from weapon finesse.

Revised Armour Training:
Heavy Armour Mastery: Increases armour from all equipment and armour hardiness. Scales with strength.
Mobility: Increases movement speed and chance to dodge projectiles. Scales with dexterity.
Thick Build: Increases resist all and decreases fatigue. Scales with constitution.
Magic Resistance: Allows you to use a fraction of your armour as reduction against all sources of spell based damage and gives a chance to avoid dispel. Scales with magic.
Character Armour: Allows you to use a fraction of you armour as reduction against all sources of mind based damage and gives resistance to resource drain. Scales with willpower.
Light Armour Mastery: Increases defence from all equipment and crit resistance. Scales with cunning.

Revised Weapon Training:
Weapon Mastery: Increases accuracy and minimum damage. Scales with strength.
Weapon Finesse: Increases crit chance and physical power. Scales with dexterity.
Brute Force: Weapon hits can knock enemies off balance. Scales with constitution.
Arcane Arms: Increases proc damage. Scales with magic.
Willful Weapons: Increases armour piercing. Something else. Scales with willpower.
Fancy Fencing: Allows parrying and counter attacks. Scales with cunning.

[Doctornull]

One more from IRC spitballing...

Mix-n-match (like Housepet's thing), but:
- Mastery stacking. So if you take 1/5 from five different talents, you have the same total mastery bonus you'd have with 5/5 in one talent.
- Limit on total 5 talents (but in any combination). So you can go 1/5 five times, or 2/5 + 3/5, or whatever.

Modification:
- Still limit to total 5 talents, but some talents give lower mastery and +% damage, so there's an opportunity cost to getting some of the fancier perks.

[brown recluse]

C: People don't really like Light Armor not being a competitive choice with Heavy Armor.

(C-2: It's not meant to be. Mages are not all meant to have good passive defenses. Period. It's meant to be a flaw-they're entirely active, don't screw up or you're paste. Light Armor and Robes don't have a differentiation in the code.)

It's not that light armor isn't competitive with massive armor, it's that light armor's main contribution to a character's survivability is the fact that it doesn't disqualify them for their talents. Unless it's a unique or randart with some crazy effects, light armor is mostly a non-factor. Defense is weak on it's own and light armor doesn't give much of it, it doesn't give much armor (which makes sense), and it doesn't give any extra resistances.

I don't know if robes need to be separated from light armor, but something needs to be done to make armor selection not be so binary. As it is, nobody who can wear massive armor without being heavily punished is going to choose to wear light (or heavy)armor.