Phasing Out Combat Training & Combat Veteran

[jaumito]

Lucky shot? Ask the Poles if that's true… their heavy-armor clad soldiers were destroyed by the Mongols, and their bows. Poland was largely conquered in the 13th century by the Mongols who almost universally wore no or light armor and the Polish royal army that fell at Leignitz was heavily armored, usually full-plate.

Full plate, usual in 13th century Poland? That's a myth. The most heavily armored soldiers at Liegnitz were knights of the military orders (Templar etc.) and even most of them only used heavy mail hauberks at the time. Still, the Mongols didn't crush them as much with bows as they did with superior tactics.

[Doctornull]

Full plate, usual in 13th century Poland? That's a myth. The most heavily armored soldiers at Liegnitz were knights of the military orders (Templar etc.) and even most of them only used heavy mail hauberks at the time. Still, the Mongols didn't crush them as much with bows as they did with superior tactics.

Because they were combat veterans.

But they're gone now.

Almost as if they'd been phased out.

[Fhtagn]

The Longbowmen at Agincourt probably caused the most direct casualties when they joined the melee with their sidearms, flanking the french troops.
The french knights were slaughtered mainly because the terrain did not allow them to flank, the archers had had time to dig in and were almost impossible to charge head-on, and the archers shot their horses.
There have also been numerous modern-time tests, and most agree that Plate Armour (and strong mail armour, especially if made of steel and with several layers of padding) could withstand longbow fire.
As for the mongols, their main advantage (besides numbers!) was a tactical one. Their enemies were not trained (and often ill-equipped) to handle the hit-and-run tactics employed by mounted archers. Their arrows did not have to pierce heavy armour. They only had to kill horses, wound a few men, and withdraw. If they were pursued, they could outrun the attacker, or lead them into a trap. If the enemy then turned, they would be pursued in turn and shot at from behind.
As for mobility in heavy armor, supermini is right - except for tournament armour used exclusively on horseback, armor was fitted to the wearer and usually allowed him to move almost unimpeded. He might not necessarily have wanted to swim or climb a tree on it, but for combat purposes, his mobility was hardly limited. I think the Fatigue rules do a good job representing the additional strain heavy armour would put on the wearer after a while.
Enough of the real world...

Rolling the Mobility light armor talent into Armor Training might be nice.

That would mean that everybody would use that talent, and that build-wise, it would enable you to switch between the two at leisure.
Hey, wait. Wasn't more meaningful player choice the goal here?

The problem with Combat Training as a whole is that it limits choice so that Melee characters need to focus a lot of attention on its talents to survive.

Oh, hey, it was!
Sorry. Thing is, the goal shouldn't be to eliminate Combat Training. Once more, I agree with supermini. There are meaningful choices to be made. I will usually invest a few points into Combat Training early on, but I will also get the first point in Vitality at lvl 1 if I can. For some characters, early investment in Survival can be more worthwhile than investing into Combat Training, even if they are wearing armour.
If anything, the goal should be to make other generic talents more worthwhile and more interesting. Combat veteran should be moved to Generics and would be a prime candidate for an overhaul.

That top one sounds a bit like a dodge. You've moved (partially) out of the way of an attack.

Actually, hmm. Graded dodging instead of all-or-nothing. Moving 60% out of the way is an interesting idea you've got there.

I do like the partial dodge idea. We have that already, though. It's called Reflex Defense, and it's a very nice way of implementing that exact thought into the game.

It will pretty well just be more or less the same as it is now - just that it is possible that a Rogue in light armor could indeed be better at reducing incoming damage then a Sun Paladin in massive armor. As for the Marauder, he'll have the highest value in damage reduction.

Why on earth would you want that?

[grayswandir]

It's probably important to note that it isn't like anything I've suggested here is automatically set in stone and can't be changed or modified to make it work. For the example of how much All Resistance should the Constitution stat give - I don't know, I'm not playing Tales of Maj'Eyal where Constitution gives All Resistance to tell you how much is too much or too little.

IMHO aiming for 15% at 60 Con is a good breakpoint, then give diminishing returns after that, possibly up to an asymptotic limit around 25% or something. I'd expect this limit to be more relevant to NPCs, of course.

As a general rule, I dislike the idea of a linear stat like Constitution producing a percentage decrease in something. (% increases are somewhat better). Giving it a limit is a decent way around it, but I'd much prefer if we didn't do it at all.
That's why I'm in favor of something like flat damage reduction, anyway.

[Doctornull]

Rolling the Mobility light armor talent into Armor Training might be nice.

That would mean that everybody would use that talent, and that build-wise, it would enable you to switch between the two at leisure.

Nah. Some people might choose to go with the Reflex Dodge equivalent, or neither (e.g. Archmage relying on shields).

If anything, the goal should be to make other generic talents more worthwhile and more interesting.

That is certainly a worthy goal... alongside removal of at least some of Combat Training.

I do like the partial dodge idea. We have that already, though. It's called Reflex Defense, and it's a very nice way of implementing that exact thought into the game.

Yeah, it's also called Evasion and it's also called Mobile Defense (armor hardiness) and it's also called Roll With It.... so we call it a lot of things.

My point isn't what we should call that, though. My point is that it'd be cool to have that in a generic Generic instead of a class-specific Generic.

As a general rule, I dislike the idea of a linear stat like Constitution producing a percentage decrease in something. (% increases are somewhat better). Giving it a limit is a decent way around it, but I'd much prefer if we didn't do it at all.
That's why I'm in favor of something like flat damage reduction, anyway.

Flat damage reduction would need to go through an equivalent sort of limitation, though, and for the same reason: because NPCs can have so much more Constitution than you.

The thing I like about +% all resistance is that it's a mechanic that's well integrated into the game already. I'm not sure how more widespread and larger flat damage reduction would integrate.

[Davion Fuxa]

It will pretty well just be more or less the same as it is now - just that it is possible that a Rogue in light armor could indeed be better at reducing incoming damage then a Sun Paladin in massive armor. As for the Marauder, he'll have the highest value in damage reduction.

Why on earth would you want that?

Because it makes sense?

If I make repeated hits that fully connect with you while the impact of your blows doesn't fully connect with me then you should take more damage. Sitting inside a tin can shouldn't automatically mean that you automatically take less damage then the glancing blows you are making on me unless the damage we are doing is negligible small.

Only if you know how to also avoid blows AND wearing protective armor should you definitely have a better ability to avoid damage.

[Doctornull]

I do like the idea of a uniquely durable Marauder who doesn't need to crutch quite so hard on Unstoppable.

[Davion Fuxa]

Or keep Unstoppable.

I'm not sure if Fortescue is still around in the background anywhere but replacing Bloodthirst with new Marauder specific categories might benefit from such a change as this since a Marauder's Survivability would be much greater.

[Fhtagn]

Only if you know how to also avoid blows AND wearing protective armor should you definitely have a better ability to avoid damage.

Oh, I am not disputing that at all. Armor mastery does that, of course, but I see your point.
However, why should the Marauder (=Raider, possibly sea-based, used for Vikings and the like) be the tankiest character? Dual-wielding and with an agile combat style... I just don't quite see it.
And that's not even considering the fact that the marauder does more damage than the other "tanky" classes, and potentially has superior mobility. I'm not doubting that it would be, mind you, just that it should.

[Davion Fuxa]

Probably worth noting, actually I would think the Bulwark would be the tankiest - since they are Shield Wielding defensive Warriors, but anyhow.

When Marauders came out initially, the idea was that it was suppose to be a Rogue that made use of movement over the stealth and traps of regular Rogues; and that movement would also double as protection in comparison to tradition fighters. Unfortunately the problem was that they didn't have enough damage negation abilities and thus bandaid solutions needed to be applied - insert the category Bloodthirst and its talent Unstoppable as an example.

Making it so that Marauders could naturally have better defenses could help improve its survivability. This could help in lessening the blow of taking away the Bloodthirst category and giving Marauders a more 'Marauder' themed category in place of it down the road. For other fighters like Berserkers, Sun Paladins, or Wyrmics, they have their own unique tricks from their talent sets and thus they don't need that tanky element as much - Sun Paladins and Wyrmics specifically being capable of being regen tanks while Berserkers just mow down anything in an 'Unstoppable' offensive.

[Red]

Perhaps it might be worth taking a look at what classes need buffing at the moment. Pulling up the old Class/Race Tier list, we can see that of the more warrior classes, here's how they stand:

S-Berserker, Marauder, Temporal Warden
A-Sun Paladin, Mindslayer, Arcane Blade, Brawler
B-Archer, Cursed, Shadowblade, Skirmisher
C-Bulwark, Rogue, Wyrmic

I've not played a ton on on straight warrior classes (though I've got a nice Sun Paladin in the prides at the moment), but it seems to me the higher ranked classes are, as it stands at the moment, lighter armored classes or less warrior classes. The only updated guide on Berserkers suggests that it's fine to keep Armor Training at one if you need generics elsewhere, and while Sun Paladins might wear the big armor, they also rely heavily on magical abilities and are a much less straight warrior class. The true armored class of the game, the Bulwark, is sitting right at the bottom of the tier list.

A lot of suggestions here seem to suggest buffing light armor, and looking at how the classes stack up that seems like the exact opposite of what should occur.

[Atarlost]

You can't even just look at the warriors. Everyone can buy combat training and even some of the archmage trees appear designed for heavy armor (stone has +armor that's nearly useless without armor hardiness and air has -fatigue that's useless when not fatigued). I don't believe wilders suffer fatigue so they may as well go heavy armor if they have spare talent points. I think paradox mages may also not suffer fatigue.

Combat Training gives stat independent accuracy and less stat dependent physical power for nonstandard builds and that's too important to lose by tying everything to specific stats. When there's only one or two ways to get important base abilities the game's effective build space gets narrower and that's bad.

[Red]

I was looking at the classes that use it most. While I fully support side builds being as possible as possible, I feel like the current talk on light armor buffs stands to put classes like Marauder and Brawler, which are already fantastic, even further above Bulwark and other classes.

As for Archmages, that just sounds like the ability needs to give hardiness too. If you're doing a Stone build, shouldn't be any kind of OP, just a good bonus.

[Fhtagn]

Red, do not forget that this ranking basically rates just one thing: the ability to handle Insane and Madness difficulty.
The S-ranked classes are those deemed capable of completing Madness. However, the game is not balanced for Madness, nor is it meant to be. That being said, the melee classes are ranked mainly by two factors: do they have Unstoppable (Marauder, Berserker), Aegis (Arcane Blade) or Temporal Shield (Temporal Warden)? If so, they can potentially handle Madness and are either S or A-rank. Sun Paladins have at least limited invulnerability and instant-death protection through class skills, and Mindslayers can achieve silly amounts of damage reduction by using Forcefield. None of these classes are rated that high because of what armor they are wearing as far as I can tell.

[Davion Fuxa]

I wouldn't give too much examination into the rankings as it doesn't necessarily examine what changes may end up happening to those classes. Berserkers are a good example of a class that was recently revamped and Marauders are currently being propped up by Unstoppable from the Bloodthirst Category - which if they were to lose would send any ranking they have to the bottom of the list. What's more, Bulwarks are technically a class that uses Dexterity as one of its important stats. It's unlikely it would suffer with any changes like this.

As a note as well, Brawlers also recently got a rework, and Skirmishers were literally only just created.