Bulwark Rework: A New Shield

[grayswandir]

For the generic Shield Training/Shield Ward, how about an additional buff to block power (or maybe a different stat if that's too overused, like armor) based on the higher of your mind and spell powers. Or maybe just a bonus to spell save?

Note that Daunting Presence is currently broken (and will be until 1.3) - it literally does nothing against most enemies currently. I wouldn't rework it completely until that fix is in - it might be better than you expect. Alternately, I think making it give a stacking debuff would be pretty neat.

A Last Stand variant: Only usable below 30%-50% life. Disables stamina regen, All damage you take is converted to X% as much stamina damage.

[NemesisZeru]

Alright, I've set up a basic github thing for if anyone wants to try a hand at coding talents. Right now it's a super-basic framework(took me forever to figure out how to push!) But gonna get to work tweaking it now that I know how.

https://github.com/NemesisZeru/tome-bulwark-rework

[NemesisZeru]

For the generic Shield Training/Shield Ward, how about an additional buff to block power (or maybe a different stat if that's too overused, like armor) based on the higher of your mind and spell powers. Or maybe just a bonus to spell save?

Note that Daunting Presence is currently broken (and will be until 1.3) - it literally does nothing against most enemies currently. I wouldn't rework it completely until that fix is in - it might be better than you expect. Alternately, I think making it give a stacking debuff would be pretty neat.

A Last Stand variant: Only usable below 30%-50% life. Disables stamina regen, All damage you take is converted to X% as much stamina damage.

Would Bullwarks even really get spell/mindpower? Seems like it'd be more a thing for Demonologists/Sun Paladins. Which isn't a bad thing, really.

As for Daunting Presence being broken...isn't 1.3 like, several patches away? Good to know it's broken though, I guess.

[Razakai]

I like those ideas, and have added them to the sheet.

- Shield Warding grants a bonus to Spell/Mind save based on a % of block value. Mind seems a useful bonus too considering you can block psionic attacks
- A stacking bonus for Daunting Presence does sound good. Like a reverse Horrifying Blows
- Last Stand dealing stamina damage is great. Would require a lot of number tweaking, but its a very interesting mechanic. I think disabling 'natural' stamina regeneration but still allowing regeneration from talents etc would be a good balance, and encourage the use of them as pseudo-healing

[anonymous000]

I love most of the ideas, but to me Bulwark is about armor, blocks and counterstrike. The Gladiator tree is cool but I feel it is anti-thematic and would suit Marauder more (like Battle Tactics does). I don't care much for plain offensive buff like Offensive Stance for the same reason.

The block-related talents certainly add much more flavor to Block, but to rework Bulwark I would suggest also tweaking the Block itself make it more interesting. Like holding a shield gives you several ways to block, making the use of blocks more tactical:

1. The normal active block which block all enemies' attacks
2. An active which targets 1 enemy you choose, last for 2-4 turns and gives you a certain chance to auto-block the attacks coming from the target, with increased block value
3. A sustain which let you choose a cone area, gives you a certain chance to auto-block the attacks from enemies who stay within the area, but keeps you immobile

[NemesisZeru]

That feel when I go to start updating the github, and black out for...14-15 hours? Hah.

I like those ideas, and have added them to the sheet.

- Shield Warding grants a bonus to Spell/Mind save based on a % of block value. Mind seems a useful bonus too considering you can block psionic attacks
- A stacking bonus for Daunting Presence does sound good. Like a reverse Horrifying Blows
- Last Stand dealing stamina damage is great. Would require a lot of number tweaking, but its a very interesting mechanic. I think disabling 'natural' stamina regeneration but still allowing regeneration from talents etc would be a good balance, and encourage the use of them as pseudo-healing

Reverse Horrifying Blows? Sounds pretty solid. As for Last Stand doing stamina damage, that DOES sound really cool, but it'd need a lot of tweaking. I like the idea of having some regeneration from talent, though. C:

I love most of the ideas, but to me Bulwark is about armor, blocks and counterstrike. The Gladiator tree is cool but I feel it is anti-thematic and would suit Marauder more (like Battle Tactics does). I don't care much for plain offensive buff like Offensive Stance for the same reason.

The block-related talents certainly add much more flavor to Block, but to rework Bulwark I would suggest also tweaking the Block itself make it more interesting. Like holding a shield gives you several ways to block, making the use of blocks more tactical:

1. The normal active block which block all enemies' attacks
2. An active which targets 1 enemy you choose, last for 2-4 turns and gives you a certain chance to auto-block the attacks coming from the target, with increased block value
3. A sustain which let you choose a cone area, gives you a certain chance to auto-block the attacks from enemies who stay within the area, but keeps you immobile

Kinda on the Gladiator thing, but I think having some occasional...alternate interpretations? can make interesting sidebuilds possible. If that makes any sense, at least.

While likely possible, that might be a bit beyond the scope of this. Then again, it's sorta snowballed quite a bit, so changes to block are certainly possible at this stage(if a bit beyond my ability.) Gotta keep in mind this'd affect quite a few other classes too, though(Wyrmics, Sun Paladins, Demonologists and probably more). Seems kinda interesting, though.

[anonymous000]

Had a look at Razakai's Bulwark rework. Seems to me there are far too many offensive buffs: Sword and Board, Offensive Block, Brawl, all of them fairly potent. Together with more chances to block with the new Shield Slam, Flow of Battle, Shield Ward and Reflexive Block (and thus more chances to counterstrike), I see the new Bulwark to be quite overpowered on the offensive side. I feel to accentuate the Bulwark theme the damage boost for Bulwark should be done by more blocks to make use of counterstrike, with this already done I think the offensive buffs are quite unnecessary. I also don't want to see too many large AOE talents as this is not Bulwark's focus. Bulldoze is very cool but long range AOE like Shockwave and Shield Toss doesn't seem to fit Bulwark. I am aware that Bulwark need some AOE but if there is AOE I hope to see them only short/melee ranged, if they want to be really good at fighting off multiple enemies they take Superiority.

OK, enough bitching, I have to say that despite the flaws (at least to me) the rework is amazing, Soldier and Knighthood in particular.

[grayswandir]

I'm not terribly fond of all the AoEs either. Maybe if they were stuck in a locked tree or something - but having more than one AoE unlocked is overkill.

[Razakai]

You're right about Shockwave being too long range for sure, and Shield Toss should probably only hit a small number of targets for low-ish damage. Mostly it's for the whole Captain America thing. One thing about the rework is that it should be really difficult to actually have enough points to get all of the stuff working at the same time, so there'll be tradeoffs.

Bulwark's damage level should be good, but below that of 2h melee classes. There's quite a few levers to pull in the form of nerfing damage numbers on Sword and Board etc, and Offensive Block could lose the shield slam bonus if needed.

[NemesisZeru]

Not quite dead! Sick, job hunting, and trying to learn lua a bit better, but not dead.

Had a look at Razakai's Bulwark rework. Seems to me there are far too many offensive buffs: Sword and Board, Offensive Block, Brawl, all of them fairly potent. Together with more chances to block with the new Shield Slam, Flow of Battle, Shield Ward and Reflexive Block (and thus more chances to counterstrike), I see the new Bulwark to be quite overpowered on the offensive side. I feel to accentuate the Bulwark theme the damage boost for Bulwark should be done by more blocks to make use of counterstrike, with this already done I think the offensive buffs are quite unnecessary. I also don't want to see too many large AOE talents as this is not Bulwark's focus. Bulldoze is very cool but long range AOE like Shockwave and Shield Toss doesn't seem to fit Bulwark. I am aware that Bulwark need some AOE but if there is AOE I hope to see them only short/melee ranged, if they want to be really good at fighting off multiple enemies they take Superiority.

OK, enough bitching, I have to say that despite the flaws (at least to me) the rework is amazing, Soldier and Knighthood in particular.

As for Shield Toss being 'long range AoE", I don't...think so? Range numbers haven't been decided yet, but I'd say it'd probably be like, a range 3-4 thing, tops(enough to hit outside your regular range, but not big enough to snipe in any real capacity). Could go farther with bounces though, admittedly, but it's not like range 10 nukes from the fog or anything.

That said...the offensive buffs might be a bit much, but it's more with the goal of giving them more options, as opposed to making them 'overpowered'. I'll agree a Bulwark's focus should be defense, but they need some offensive retooling, too. You bring up some solid points, though. c:

You're right about Shockwave being too long range for sure, and Shield Toss should probably only hit a small number of targets for low-ish damage. Mostly it's for the whole Captain America thing. One thing about the rework is that it should be really difficult to actually have enough points to get all of the stuff working at the same time, so there'll be tradeoffs.

Bulwark's damage level should be good, but below that of 2h melee classes. There's quite a few levers to pull in the form of nerfing damage numbers on Sword and Board etc, and Offensive Block could lose the shield slam bonus if needed.

Yeah. As it is, Bulwark's damage is roughly..80-90% Assault, feels like(may not be accurate, but Assault IS a big chunk of their damage, I feel) Ideally, giving them more options will help up their offensive potential without outright putting bigger numbers in.

As for Shield Toss, yeah...I'd say maybe 3 targets at most? Not like, chain lightning levels but enough that you can get a little extra damage. Should be based on block damage, as opposed to weapon damage(Razakai's description is a bit vague there), though.

Wait, it's already 1-3 targets. I guess Raza edited it.

[Faeryan]

By reading this I have few concerns:

- Shield Toss. Really? That skill seems really too good.
- Headbutt. Damage on par with Marauder's butt? Yessir, unless I'm on the receiving end. That skill is already too good.
- For the people! That skill just seems a bit weird.
- The one that adds shield strike on every weapon hit and vice versa. Seems pretty powerful.
- Also I'm surprised a Bulwark doesn't get any form of healing skill. Class theme has room for a little in-fight regen based on Con, something in the sense of Breathing Room, you know, non-magical.

All in all I fear this rework might make Bulwarks a bit too powerful compared to rest.

[NemesisZeru]

By reading this I have few concerns:

- Shield Toss. Really? That skill seems really too good.
How so?
- Headbutt. Damage on par with Marauder's butt? Yessir, unless I'm on the receiving end. That skill is already too good.
I've never run a Marauder, so I don't know there. Seems tame enough, though, unless headgear damage scales really high or something.
- For the people! That skill just seems a bit weird.
It's removed in the most recent versions, anyways, I think. Razakai's draft is the current version.
- The one that adds shield strike on every weapon hit and vice versa. Seems pretty powerful.
Yeah, the idea was to have physical attacks blend in shield use and vice versa, but it might be a bit too much, depending on numbers.
- Also I'm surprised a Bulwark doesn't get any form of healing skill. Class theme has room for a little in-fight regen based on Con, something in the sense of Breathing Room, you know, non-magical.
A valid point I didn't consider. I'll keep that in mind!

All in all I fear this rework might make Bulwarks a bit too powerful compared to rest.

[anonymous000]

[/b]
- The one that adds shield strike on every weapon hit and vice versa. Seems pretty powerful.
Yeah, the idea was to have physical attacks blend in shield use and vice versa, but it might be a bit too much, depending on numbers.
- Also I'm surprised a Bulwark doesn't get any form of healing skill. Class theme has room for a little in-fight regen based on Con, something in the sense of Breathing Room, you know, non-magical.
A valid point I didn't consider. I'll keep that in mind!

All in all I fear this rework might make Bulwarks a bit too powerful compared to rest.

Sword and Board: The problem does not lie in the numbers, but rather the necessity of it. This one intends to be the class defining damage talent for bulwark, but does bulwark really need one like that? I think the class defining damage talent is already there: block and counterstrike. The rework had already added a lot more chances for bulwark to use block, I don't really see the need for an extra damage boost

Healing skill: Don't really think there is much need for that either, this rework had also boosted bulwark's survivability already.

[Faeryan]

I've never run a Marauder, so I don't know there. Seems tame enough, though, unless headgear damage scales really high or something

.
Haven't played a Marauder for a while but just playing a Commando add-on that uses the Headbutt tree. The headgear scaling is sick alright.

Commando enjoys a bit high Phys Power rating alright, but still 1700+ headbutts at lv34 with Garkul's Helmet are rather high.

New Bulwark with this and the shield offense tree and whatnot makes this guy never run out of high damage skills to use. I bet there's not a single turn of cooldowns during which you need to do bump attack or anything less of "class defining" attack talent.

Surely I'd love a headbutting metal-clad panzer char to wreak havoc with, but it'd make everything else seem boring.