Chants & Hymns rework

[HousePet]

I'm not being obtuse, your suggested change will make Chants/Hymns much weaker until 10+ points have been spent in them.
Even assuming an Anorithil has enough points to make such an investment, they won't have that many points available until level 30ish.

[donkatsu]

You could just increase the numbers a little bit later on. Overall strength is easy to tweak as long as you have a good base to work with. Creating demand for points is, I think, a good thing for classes in general.

[Bormoth]

Light radius is still nice for autoexplore.

Not nice enough to spend points just to get it. On higher difficulties you never explore unless you have cauterize. and you basically already have range 14 light every 22 turns, for those long corridors. Plus it at least blinds, illuminates and deals damage at range 7.
Even with 4k damage freeze gone you never know when you run into rampaging rogue, or troll, Or one of alchemists, or anothiril skeleton mage with shit ton dangerous skills, to autoexplore. Or some of psi classes. Maybe constant 4 or 5 light range is good for convinience but not good enough to grant to spend points on it while I can get see invisible, or something from conditioning tree, or stone alchemy, or few levels to arcane eye

[donkatsu]

Not nice enough to spend points just to get it.

This is true. The bonus is purely quality of life and if you're serious about winning no matter what then you wouldn't take it. It would have to come bundled with other effects, but as a minor bonus on the side it's not a completely useless stat.

[Doctornull]

I'm not being obtuse, your suggested change will make Chants/Hymns much weaker until 10+ points have been spent in them.
Even assuming an Anorithil has enough points to make such an investment, they won't have that many points available until level 30ish.

No, that's completely wrong.

At 2 points spent (at level 4), you get MORE from my version than you'd get from 2 points spent in the current system.

At 4 points spent (at level 6), you get MORE from my version than you'd get from 4 points spent in the current system.

At 6 points spent (at level 9), you get a large chunk of the value that would have cost you 15 points in the original system.

You could just increase the numbers a little bit later on. Overall strength is easy to tweak as long as you have a good base to work with. Creating demand for points is, I think, a good thing for classes in general.

Makes sense. Yeah, tweaks are probably going to be needed.

Not nice enough to spend points just to get it.

This is true. The bonus is purely quality of life and if you're serious about winning no matter what then you wouldn't take it. It would have to come bundled with other effects, but as a minor bonus on the side it's not a completely useless stat.

Hmm. So, what effects could be bundled with the +lite radius?

Maybe, at level 3, your retaliation Light damage can also Blind attackers?

Maybe you also get some (small) Light respen bonus, maybe 2-10% or so?

[HousePet]

I seem to be missing something here then. How is your design giving more with two points spent at level 4 than the existing one?
Are the values given higher?

Okay, some numbers:
To get the current bonus from Chant of Fortitude 5 costs 5 points.
To get the same values from this proposed system costs 5 points in Chant Acolyte and 4 in Chant Adept.
Sure, you also get Chant of Fortress 5 and Chant of Fortune 5, but since you can't have more than one chant active at once its not worth that much.
Three for the price of two is only good value if you can use all three.

Hymns is even worse, with the values spread over three talents. Hymns at least have some value to owning the different types.

[Doctornull]

Sure, you also get Chant of Fortress 5 and Chant of Fortune 5, but since you can't have more than one chant active at once its not worth that much.
Three for the price of two is only good value if you can use all three.

Right now, if you want Chant of Light, you have to buy your way through three talents which you cannot use while using Chant of Light, but it's worse than that: since they lack investment, they're even less worth using than the other two Chants would be in my proposal.

Under the current system, the user is required to throw away points to get any Chant other than the first.

My proposal removes the requirement to throw away points. The user throws away zero points. All points spent actually do something nice, all the time. Unlike the current system.

You're complaining that I'm not fixing it enough, maybe? But what I'm doing is still better by your own criteria.

So, I'm open to design ideas. But I'm not interested in going around in this weird circle where you complain about things in my proposal which are currently worse in the actual game.

[HousePet]

I've already stated I like the idea a few times. I'd be able to make helpful suggestions if I could get in a little criticism of the weak points in the proposal without it being interpreted as a personal attack or stupidity on my part.

As for actual suggestions:

Chant Acolyte - Passive; grants all three Chants at Chant Acolyte level, but with no light damage when hit.
Chant Illuminate - Passive; grants +1 Light radius per point and the light damage when hit.
Chant Adept - Passive; grants some sort of buff each time you change Chants, based on the Chant you switched to.
Chant Solarian - Passive; grants +% damage to your Fire and Light attacks.

Hymn Acolyte - Passive; grants all three Hymns at Hymn Acolyte level, but with no darkness damage when hit.
Hymn Incantor - Passive; grants increased darkness damage and darkness damage when hit.
Hymn Adept - Passive; grants some sort of buff each time you change Hymns, based on the Hymn you switched to.
Hymn Nocturnalist - Passive; grants the benefit of Hymn of Moonlight to each Hymn (maybe scaled down a bit).

Hymn of Shadows would need to be changed. Some sort of mobility buff would be nice.

[Doctornull]

I've already stated I like the idea a few times. I'd be able to make helpful suggestions if I could get in a little criticism of the weak points in the proposal without it being interpreted as a personal attack or stupidity on my part.

Maybe give some more details on the rationale behind your arguments, then? Some of your posts are really short on details, and when I can easily picture scenarios which disprove your assertions, it's difficult to credit your assertions with much weight.

Anyway, let's design instead of arguing.

Here's the design goals that I want to meet:
- Make exploration of the different Chants easy and not punishing for n00bz who don't already know how good they each are.
- Make it viable to be lazy (just leave one Chant on most of the time).
- Make it rewarding BUT NOT REQUIRED to micro-manage swapping Chants.

Chant Acolyte - Passive; grants all three Chants at Chant Acolyte level, but with no light damage when hit.

The first talent can be granted by an Escort. Front-loading most of the major benefits just doesn't sit right with me.

So, try two:

Chanter 1: Grant all Chants at base functionality; at talent levels above 1, increase lite radius (up to +4).
Chanter 2: Improve the major defensive bonus of each Chant.
Chanter 3: Improve the on-hit damage. Once per 12 turns when you switch into a new Chant, regain some Stamina and Negative Energy.
Chanter 4: +% Light and Fire damage.

Chant of Fortitude: +max Life and +% resist all (no saving throw bonus); minor +Life and Stamina regen.
Chant of Fortress: -% damage from distant foes (current effect).
Chant of Fortune: +saving throws; +crit shrug-off; when you take damage you regain Stamina and Positive energy.

Where to fit:
- Mana regen (to benefit those fellows who snag a Diviner Escort or go into Staff Combat)
- Defense bonus?

[HousePet]

For escort rewards, it is possible to give out the actual Chant talents rather than the Acolyte talent. That would be a good idea as then you don't have to worry about needing more than one Sun Paladin escort to get something usable.

I front loaded the major benefits as that provides the basic benefits that people currently get out of the category, but without the silliness of investing in Chants they aren't going to use. Requiring multiple talents to get a decent benefit was one of the major problems with the old Mindslayer. Scaling the bonuses on the second talent isn't too bad though, but it does mean that people will be paying 1 more talent point for something that they will only get a benefit from if they micromanage switching. Also, the 6 point investment would be weaker than the current Chants because of the lack of when hit damage. Also minor though.
To summarise, this is going to make the Chants weaker per point cost unless you micromanage them. I don't think this is what you want to achieve. Its only small, but I'm sure we can do better.

Chanter 1 looks too weak for anyone to bother investing in.

[Bormoth]

Chant Acolyte - Passive; grants all three Chants at Chant Acolyte level, but with no light damage when hit.
Chant Illuminate - Passive; grants +1 Light radius per point and the light damage when hit.
Chant Adept - Passive; grants some sort of buff each time you change Chants, based on the Chant you switched to.
Chant Solarian - Passive; grants +% damage to your Fire and Light attacks.

Hymn Acolyte - Passive; grants all three Hymns at Hymn Acolyte level, but with no darkness damage when hit.
Hymn Incantor - Passive; grants increased darkness damage and darkness damage when hit.
Hymn Adept - Passive; grants some sort of buff each time you change Hymns, based on the Hymn you switched to.
Hymn Nocturnalist - Passive; grants the benefit of Hymn of Moonlight to each Hymn (maybe scaled down a bit).

Quite like both Adept Especially if adept buffs are good enough to grant them on their own (Switch only not deactivation or activation), Makes conundrum of using non optimal chant or hymn for something(Make chants long (2+ turn buffs and hymns next non hymn spell?)
Chant illuminate (Never used damage on hit(you) aside of spooking brittle oozes and co) looks not worth light you don't need and damage on melee hit and light radius is not critical both for anorithil, and sun paladin(both already have good light sources, and this makes two underwhelming gains for telent points) (Make damage on melee hit, smite in vengeance once per turn ranged at lvl3, and all who hit you at lvl5, even if it is weak now at least you may soften those far archers and mages, who tend to hit most)
Hymn Incantor would be too good but overlaps with one of hymns and too synergistic with Nocturnalist(so for 15 points you gain 3 current hymns at once, and hey even stronger Nocturnalist with hymn of shadows, otherwise just weak retaliation, even less useful because you have aoe to spook oozes, and nocturnalist)
nocturnalist and solarian are pretty good concidering now you get them tucked on nocturnalist may be a bit too strong maybe we would have to make it *instant cast with cooldown)

...
Chanter 1: Grant all Chants at base functionality; at talent levels above 1, increase lite radius (up to +4).
Chanter 2: Improve the major defensive bonus of each Chant.
Chanter 3: Improve the on-hit damage. Once per 12 turns when you switch into a new Chant, regain some Stamina and Negative Energy.
Chanter 4: +% Light and Fire damage.

Chant of Fortitude: +max Life and +% resist all (no saving throw bonus); minor +Life and Stamina regen.
Chant of Fortress: -% damage from distant foes (current effect).
Chant of Fortune: +saving throws; +crit shrug-off; when you take damage you regain Stamina and Positive energy.

Where to fit:
- Mana regen (to benefit those fellows who snag a Diviner Escort or go into Staff Combat)
- Defense bonus?

Chanter 1 point tax (taking more then one is never worth it Celestial light is just too good to spare generics on light radius)
(each consecutive light spell heals you for a flat amount(grow in power stacks 5 times or so?), you after celestial light you deal increased darkness damage with next star fury spell and increased light damage after starfury spell and gain (-5 or -10%) reduced damage penalty of invisibility, and increase your invisibility power with each starfury spell cast. Sounds fun(though a bit front loaded for anorithill which not feels right. Should it maybe separated and tucked on one of hymn skills though still not solves chants?)
Chanter 2 pretty much can be left if chanter 1 solved
Chanter 3 would be good tuck it on other talent or remove cooldown (even ability to gain 5 negative per switched chant gives few turns under darkest light(5 to be exact), but somehow chant adept idea looks more tasty.

Chant of fortune and chant of fortitude fight with each other and serve same role, (maybe if chant of fortitude kept your relative % of health of max it would be worth a risk. Stamina regen is quite hard to come by and for skill based builds it would be still pretty good) Otherwise no I'm not losing 20% life to lose more life for stamina. until I get damaged enough and even then only if chant doesn't takes a turn.

[Doctornull]

For escort rewards, it is possible to give out the actual Chant talents rather than the Acolyte talent.

That would be some ugly code.

Nah, escorts give the first talent ONLY, and if you want more you can buy the tree.

That would be a good idea as then you don't have to worry about needing more than one Sun Paladin escort to get something usable.

My plan is for all three to be usable, at base level, with one talent point in the first talent only. If you get only one Sun Paladin escort, you'll be no worse off than you would be under the current system. I thought that was pretty clearly laid out.

I have no plans to give the 2nd talent out via escorts, since it would be worthless without the first one and therefore it would be a trap option. I think I mentioned this over on IRC, but maybe it got lost in the deluge.

Dunno what the 2nd Sun Paladin escort talent choice would be. Barrier? Armor Training? Whatever it end up being, it's not a big problem.

Requiring multiple talents to get a decent benefit was one of the major problems with the old Mindslayer.

I don't think it's fair to compare the requirement of taking talents in four different trees with a single tree.

Having talents improve other talents in the same tree is pretty common.

Scaling the bonuses on the second talent isn't too bad though, but it does mean that people will be paying 1 more talent point for something that they will only get a benefit from if they micromanage switching. Also, the 6 point investment would be weaker than the current Chants because of the lack of when hit damage. Also minor though.

Nah, even if you don't ever voluntarily switch, you'll still get your sustains shutdown every now or then. At that point, you'll have two other good options to invoke while your favorite cools down.

To summarise, this is going to make the Chants weaker per point cost unless you micromanage them. I don't think this is what you want to achieve.

[/quote] That's only true if you were only ever planning on investing in the first chant and the first hymn and never bothered with any of the others. That's basically only accurate for some Sun Paladin builds and none of the Anorithil builds which rely on Moonlight (i.e. pretty much all of them).

For anyone who would have used Chant of Fortress or later, this system is better on a point-for-point basis. Chant of Fortress is fairly popular, from what I can tell, so many people are currently wasting 1 point in Chant of Fortitude tax.

For anyone who would have used Moonlight, this system is more interesting because you can choose something interesting to go along with your pure mechanical bonus.

Chanter 1 point tax (taking more then one is never worth it Celestial light is just too good to spare generics on light radius)

It's not a point tax if it gives you a concrete benefit.

The benefits of Chanter 1 stack with everything after it, so ... not a tax.

However, you are noticing why I want some one-point wonders in the Chants/Hymns trees. Light is very good, and Light is a point-hog, and that's okay.

I don't mind seeing 1/5/1/5 or 1/5/5/0 or even 1/5/0/0 or 5/5/0/0 (for Anorithil who like to auto-explore).

Chanter 3 would be good tuck it on other talent or remove cooldown (even ability to gain 5 negative per switched chant gives few turns under darkest light(5 to be exact), but somehow chant adept idea looks more tasty.

Darkest Light is terrible and should go away. Supporting Darkest Light is not one of my design goals. Making the category attractive to Liches is more interesting to me (but Anorithils in general come before Liches, of course).

Chant of fortune and chant of fortitude fight with each other and serve same role, (maybe if chant of fortitude kept your relative % of health of max it would be worth a risk. Stamina regen is quite hard to come by and for skill based builds it would be still pretty good) Otherwise no I'm not losing 20% life to lose more life for stamina. until I get damaged enough and even then only if chant doesn't takes a turn.

Yeah, swapping takes no time, so mid-fight you will want to swap from Fortitude to Fortune, then when you're hiding or resting you want to swap back to Fortitude.

That's true even without any explicit swapping bonuses.

[Bormoth]

I'm against pretty much against of useless growth on one point wonders (even assault grows a little bit both shield and sword damage and is useful enough to make it worth).
Such things create noob trap (And you make it as well as 1/1 talent and give +3 light radius right away), and remove credibility of taking more then one skill point (Early on you may get either 6 infra or 6 light lamps quite often), for heightened senses you at least get trap detection and never worry that you would be screwed by one of nasty traps. Btw there is a lot of 1 point wonders that are obscure because other skills are useless beyond 1 point and you need to dump other skillpoints somewhere.

[HousePet]

For escort rewards, it is possible to give out the actual Chant talents rather than the Acolyte talent.

That would be some ugly code.

The Chant code is going to be ugly regardless.

My plan is for all three to be usable, at base level, with one talent point in the first talent only. If you get only one Sun Paladin escort, you'll be no worse off than you would be under the current system. I thought that was pretty clearly laid out.

But should you get two, you wouldn't get anything else from Chants.
Which is why I recommend giving the raw Chant instead. You'll be no worse off and a second point still has an effect. Also, Chants on non celestial magic users tends to be quite powerful. If they got all three Chants it might be too powerful.

I don't think it's fair to compare the requirement of taking talents in four different trees with a single tree.
Having talents improve other talents in the same tree is pretty common.

Its an example of how it can go wrong, no comparison was implied.

Nah, even if you don't ever voluntarily switch, you'll still get your sustains shutdown every now or then. At that point, you'll have two other good options to invoke while your favorite cools down.

That's true.

To summarise, this is going to make the Chants weaker per point cost unless you micromanage them. I don't think this is what you want to achieve.

That's only true if you were only ever planning on investing in the first chant and the first hymn and never bothered with any of the others. That's basically only accurate for some Sun Paladin builds and none of the Anorithil builds which rely on Moonlight (i.e. pretty much all of them).

You are spreading the full power of Chants/Hymns over three different talents. Sure the important values are on only two of the talents. If we ignore the damage when hit, you are correct.

For anyone who would have used Chant of Fortress or later, this system is better on a point-for-point basis. Chant of Fortress is fairly popular, from what I can tell, so many people are currently wasting 1 point in Chant of Fortitude tax.

You have been giving good reasons for having more than one Chant/Hymn, so its not a huge talent tax.

Chanter 1 and 3 are just filler. Cranking that light damage when hit would be great for Sun Paladin. Could make it also scale with current positive energy? That might be enough for Chanter 3.
Two talents giving the Chant bonus and extra light radius is too cheap. Compounded by the loss of the damage when hit.

[Bormoth]

damage on melee hit is good when something hits you, more often then not stuff doesn't hit(even in massive armor) you, so no damage on hit, and it is too little to be good for anything else then spook oozes. For hymns it is even worse Anorithils have a lot of aoe already and tend to have lots of defense.
Also don't see value in sun paladin escorts beyond first would quite weaken magic side(AM get's strong skills too like psi blades, dream walk, nature's heal), so second sun paladin becomes pretty much stat fodder we already have thief, in some cases seer, and (one that gives 2 of any stat), when you pick rewards each skill has description if someone inept reading, how can I help. Plus any talent in charms category but first can give chants at lvl 0 :p.