Is the grand corruptor too strong? (spoilers)

[chronomancer]

I absolutely mean no disrespect but I don't understand this conversation.

When are you all attacking the Grand Corruptor? The only class I every attack him with before returning west AND clearing out the backup guardians is a Necromancer.

For one, his name is "The Grand Corruptor." That alone, and the ominous mark that indicates the level should be a warning.

I believe those of us with objections are looking at it from the eyes of a newb, not a seasoned player. As an experienced player, of course I don't engage the GC unless I'm confident I will win. The issue *isn't* that the GC presents an overly difficult challenge that can't be overcome. The issue is that new players, who likely don't even know the game well enough to counter the "regular" threats, often encounter the GC and die a few rounds later, usually without even knowing what happened. It's not a question of skill; it's simply a "new player tax" that subtracts one life.

As for names and descriptions, they're are often simply seen as flavor text to set the mood. The "Heart of the Gloom" sounds dangerous, and "the Scintillating Caves" have some highly ominous flavor text about reality being warped, but both are actually easy zones. Which is fine - they're great storytelling tools, and the real test of a zone's difficulty is to fight some of the early mobs and see if you can take them. Except in this case.

(In answer to your first question: with strong ranged magic classes I attack him last thing before going east, for the chance to hit Zigur and get the free unlocks. Since I have the metagaming knowledge of how fearscape works, this is easy to do by staying at long range. I otherwise wait until my return to the west.)

[Mex]

I absolutely mean no disrespect but I don't understand this conversation.

When are you all attacking the Grand Corruptor? The only class I every attack him with before returning west AND clearing out the backup guardians is a Necromancer.

For one, his name is "The Grand Corruptor." That alone, and the ominous mark that indicates the level should be a warning.

I believe those of us with objections are looking at it from the eyes of a newb, not a seasoned player. As an experienced player, of course I don't engage the GC unless I'm confident I will win. The issue *isn't* that the GC presents an overly difficult challenge that can't be overcome. The issue is that new players, who likely don't even know the game well enough to counter the "regular" threats, often encounter the GC and die a few rounds later, usually without even knowing what happened. It's not a question of skill; it's simply a "new player tax" that subtracts one life.

As for names and descriptions, they're are often simply seen as flavor text to set the mood. The "Heart of the Gloom" sounds dangerous, and "the Scintillating Caves" have some highly ominous flavor text about reality being warped, but both are actually easy zones. Which is fine - they're great storytelling tools, and the real test of a zone's difficulty is to fight some of the early mobs and see if you can take them. Except in this case.

(In answer to your first question: with strong ranged magic classes I attack him last thing before going east, for the chance to hit Zigur and get the free unlocks. Since I have the metagaming knowledge of how fearscape works, this is easy to do by staying at long range. I otherwise wait until my return to the west.)

If new players actually took the time to right click on the corruptor and check his talents then they would understand how hard he is to take on (this goes for any rare/unique/boss you come across anyway), just because they don't doesn't make the corruptor per se a "newbie tax". Keep in mind also that this is an optional quest, as such it being more difficult than the main story line is expected.

The Grand Corruptor can be hard to deal with if you rely on magical sustains, I personally would avoid him on Madness for example (I fought him for a solid 30m and eventually just gave up and left...).

It's all risk vs reward, you could even do it when you're at level 50, there's not really any urgency for the zone to be completed.

I personally don't think his difficulty is that much of an issue given these points.

[HousePet]

A newbie who doesn't know the game well enough to counter regular threats, can't get to the Grand Corruptor.

To get to the Grand Corruptor they first have to solve how to get past areas such as the Scintillating Caves, Rhaloren Camp, Abashed Expanse, the Shade in Kor'pul, the Sandworm Lair, the Maze, Lake Nur...

As such, they are not a newbie, and have a decent amount of experience.

[Davion Fuxa]

And yet none of that experience comes anywhere close for getting them ready for the Mark of the Spellblaze - not even the Final Bosses can perhaps compare to how difficult the Grand Corrupter is when thought at level. He's probably just as hard as the Forge Giant Guardian in the Slime Tunnels perhaps in how difficult he is for another comparison.

I'd also note that expecting people to know that they can check the talents of individual enemies is also a stretch - I beat the game a few times before I ever bothered to start right clicking on enemies for example.

Also, while the Mark of the Spellblaze is content that can be skipped, players do have to accrue experience to level up. Around the time that players are starting to enter Dreadfell, they don't exactly have a lot of optional dungeon choices to really make use of. The Mark of the Spellblaze, The Dark Crypt, The Last Hope Graveyard, and the Elven Ruins are pretty well he dungeon roster - outside of the Exploratory Farportal. This deserves mentioning because players start to become constrained in their options for gaining experience as the game is about to reach its first climax in difficulty.

Anyhow.

At this point I wonder if perhaps something can be agreed on in at least changes towards the dungeon or doing something that can address issues that satisfy everyone. Would it be acceptable for example if perhaps the Mark of the Spellblaze was an instance with like minimum level 40 enemies running around or if when you entered the Mark of the Spellblaze you got guaranteed written messages similar to when you enter the Mausoleum in Last Hope Graveyard to sort of build some semblance of danger?

[Atarlost]

You can't expect new players to take full advantage of the available information. I'd been playing for over a year and won once on adventure before I realized you could get a full NPC character sheet from the right click menu. There's nothing to hint at its existence to keyboard users, or at least nothing that I noticed.

And, no, he's not too strong. Or if he is so are Dreadfall vaults and that giant golem whose name escapes me at the moment and the room of death and every other optional challenge. Does ToME want to be a roguelike or not?

Anything you can avoid and come back to later is not a problem unless there isn't enough XP before for some mandatory challenge if it's skipped. The only places there could be serious issues outside the main plot are the limited availability kidnapped merchant and demoniac cult dungeons. The former certainly isn't an issue and the latter is debatable and could probably be solved by narrowing the level range it can appear at.

[jaumito]

It's funny, the first two times I did the Mark of the Spellblaze, it seems a large group of elementals spawned just next to the Grand Corruptor and whacked him to bits. It took me three tries to actually meet this gentleman in person.

[cctobias]

I have rarely fought this guy, the one time I did was on my ranged staff shadowblade. I think I hit him for like half his life then he fearscaped me, so I cast bathe in light and then hit him twice more while I tanked everything and he died. That might have been on normal, I can't remember. I think I did him around level 30? I had a really good staff for the build though.

What is it that makes him really hard? And why is he worse for melee?

I would say that things like Fearscape and the Disco of Death that Dreaming horrors put you in are kind of strange powers that seem to be more useful for NPCs than players and they may confuse a lot of new players. I don't find that bad but they are peculiar with a number non-obvious details and also kind of rare. I think you can dispel them too which is also not exactly obvious.

And yeah some of the dreadfell vaults seem WAAAAY harder. Level 60 demons coming at you some of which may be able to cast fearscape too and the entire vault is lava etc.

[Davion Fuxa]

The thing about the Grand Corrupter is that he has the Shaloran Racials (like Grace of the Eternals) and Fearscape damages you everytime you take a step. These coupled mean that Melee players will be frantically chasing after the Grand Corrupter in a time critical environment - spellcasters or otherwise ranged characters can simply just pelt him each turn until he falls over.

[cctobias]

The thing about the Grand Corrupter is that he has the Shaloran Racials (like Grace of the Eternals) and Fearscape damages you everytime you take a step. These coupled mean that Melee players will be frantically chasing after the Grand Corrupter in a time critical environment - spellcasters or otherwise ranged characters can simply just pelt him each turn until he falls over.

But many distance closing abilities have a pin/daze etc. I mean most decent melee build should have some sort of mobility and distance closing ability or they will kind of suck in general.

Does Timeless extend fearscape? I could see that hosing some people. Ceratinly a +40% global speed, extended fearscape would be nasty for someone trying to chase, but if you take a Berserker, they can counter to some extent with warshout, Rush and Cripple. Even a Rogue can use Acrobatics and Nimble movements and cripple. Also stuns reduce movement speed.

Sure some melee builds are going to get owned but don't most classes have the tools available and its really a matter of whether they took them?

I can definitely see the wrong build getting seriously owned, but it seems like the right melee builds can do it. Maybe I am missing something. Ranged certainly has it easier, but what else is new? Ranged just seems easier to me, maybe not overall more powerful when certain things are taken into account but overall easier yeah.

[cctobias]

I absolutely mean no disrespect but I don't understand this conversation.

When are you all attacking the Grand Corruptor? The only class I every attack him with before returning west AND clearing out the backup guardians is a Necromancer.

For one, his name is "The Grand Corruptor." That alone, and the ominous mark that indicates the level should be a warning.

I believe those of us with objections are looking at it from the eyes of a newb, not a seasoned player. As an experienced player, of course I don't engage the GC unless I'm confident I will win. The issue *isn't* that the GC presents an overly difficult challenge that can't be overcome. The issue is that new players, who likely don't even know the game well enough to counter the "regular" threats, often encounter the GC and die a few rounds later, usually without even knowing what happened. It's not a question of skill; it's simply a "new player tax" that subtracts one life.

As for names and descriptions, they're are often simply seen as flavor text to set the mood. The "Heart of the Gloom" sounds dangerous, and "the Scintillating Caves" have some highly ominous flavor text about reality being warped, but both are actually easy zones. Which is fine - they're great storytelling tools, and the real test of a zone's difficulty is to fight some of the early mobs and see if you can take them. Except in this case.

(In answer to your first question: with strong ranged magic classes I attack him last thing before going east, for the chance to hit Zigur and get the free unlocks. Since I have the metagaming knowledge of how fearscape works, this is easy to do by staying at long range. I otherwise wait until my return to the west.)

Well this is fine but isn't something like Dark Crypt far more egregious? I mean you can come back to grand corruptor. You play on adventure get schooled by him and come back later after thinking about it or whatever.

Dark Crypt you can't choose when you get to go and if it pops when you are not prepared you are screwed.

I think that having a "new player" tax that is a challenge they can come back to is perfectly fine, as long as its not too stupid. You get fearscaped and go "OMGWTFBBQ is going on?! I am on FIRE!" and then die, well its ok then they can look into what fearscape is and how to counter it. And other things fearscape in the game as well so its not just some stupid corner case.

DC though there is no useful indication of how hard it is or in what way it is hard and you have no ability to come back and see if you have learned enough to deal with it by trying again except by starting another character and praying it doesn't trigger until you are ready

[Davion Fuxa]

It is likely that the Grand Corrupter isn't just going to keel over very quickly. His Bone Shield will ensure he'll absorb a lot of your initial damage, and Timeless will ensure that he'll quickly remove any Daze/Pin/Stun abilities you throw on him initially. He'll likely go invisible after the first couple hits land on him, and he'll move away which means you will be taking damage trying to find him - while subsequently he'll be healing in the flames of Fearscape as he dances around and regaining his Bone Shield.

****

It is worth nothing that one should really look at the Dark Crypt as a Challenge Dungeon. If you think you can handle the dungeon, you do it. If you don not think you can handle the dungeon, you skip it. Much like Mark of the Spellblaze I would say it just as much deserves a nice big 'Death Awaits' label written somewhere on it so players can get some semblance of the danger ahead of them.

[Cadex]

I'd agree that the Grand Corruptor is too strong, assuming you fight him before going East (which you would if you follow the wiki's zone order guide). And this is coming from someone who thinks a lot of the game is overly easy (on normal diff).

Fearscape is bad enough in that it shuts down most of your escape options (movement, teleport) and also resting, which can be a death sentence for "hit-and-run" melee classes such as cursed and rogue unless you have dispersion or happen to be overleveled/very overgeared.

If it were just Fearscape, I think the fight could perhaps serve as a good introduction to the ability - it would still be sufficiently scary due to the "life or death" nature of it and also the "wtf is going on" feeling the first time it happens.

But it's not just Fearscape. He's very tough to kill due to bone shield (one of the strongest defensive abilities), self-healing from Flame of Uhr'rok and drain spells, hundreds of fire+blight dmg per turn, high vim pool, and so on. All combined, it's too much, unless you already know the fight and thus know how to prepare for or avoid it.

I'd guess I'd prefer reducing his overall damage/healing (especially the Fearscape damage), but the other suggestion of an "extreme danger" warning message would be better than changing nothing.

[grayswandir]

I would like to see a guaranteed or near-guaranteed fearscape fight around level 20 - just to introduce the player to the concept if they haven't already run into it.

[Delmuir]

I would like to see a guaranteed or near-guaranteed fearscape fight around level 20 - just to introduce the player to the concept if they haven't already run into it.

I don't disagree with this.

I will re-iterate my general sentiment. That area is ominous which, if you've ever played a video-game before, usually indicates something difficult. I don't think a surprise death there is that big a deal.

However, your point is interesting to me. The Grand Corruptor is often one's first experience with fearscape and that's quite a learning curve given how tough he is.

To that end, I suggest a Zigur "training" quest. Some minor quest that acts like a tutorial of sorts… something that explains some of the more bizarre game elements like fearscape.

[cctobias]

It is likely that the Grand Corrupter isn't just going to keel over very quickly. His Bone Shield will ensure he'll absorb a lot of your initial damage, and Timeless will ensure that he'll quickly remove any Daze/Pin/Stun abilities you throw on him initially. He'll likely go invisible after the first couple hits land on him, and he'll move away which means you will be taking damage trying to find him - while subsequently he'll be healing in the flames of Fearscape as he dances around and regaining his Bone Shield.

****

It is worth nothing that one should really look at the Dark Crypt as a Challenge Dungeon. If you think you can handle the dungeon, you do it. If you don not think you can handle the dungeon, you skip it. Much like Mark of the Spellblaze I would say it just as much deserves a nice big 'Death Awaits' label written somewhere on it so players can get some semblance of the danger ahead of them.

The difference is Mark of the Spellblaze is always there once you feel ready. You can't prepare for dark crypt, you just have to get lucky. If your build matures at lvl 30 and DC pops at 24 you are screwed, but you can still do Spellblaze.

Dark Crypt is inherently flawed. Its a casino not a challenge. Spellblaze is a challenge with possible counters, the trick is being knowledgable enough to know what they are. Dark Crypt is doable, but whether you will have what you need when it pops is a crap shoot.

IMO, and I am not an expert on this game, Grand Corruptor can be taken by a good or better player who plans ahead and 80% of playthroughs can eventually take him in various ways. Some can do it easier (arcane blade can shred bone shield in one round) and other will have it harder (I would guess bulwark to be hard).

So to my mind Spellblaze is ok other than some minor tweaking about undead needing corrupted heart and some better indication of general difficulty, but its not a casino game like Dark Crypt and as long as its got a reasonable diversity in possible counters that knowledgable people can aquire then I am fairly good with it.

Thus Dark Crypt is crap, its just gambling. It is substantively and mechanically different because even if you are amazing at the game if it pops at an unlucky time you are screwed. Game over, man, game over. Gambling on roguelike is stupid. But Grand Corruptor, while possibly something that kills the unwary pr overly brave, is certainly doable and doable by many. Perhaps it needs an atamathon "are you sure?" I dunno because he is not really as one shotty as him but if he needs extra info that is fine.