Escorts are effing STUPID

[Kwibus]

They are effing stupid, thank god. This isn't my little ponies.
If one dies, deal with it.

[Atarlost]

They are effing stupid, thank god. This isn't my little ponies.
If one dies, deal with it.

There's a difference between an escort dieing because he already had a twisted ankle and a broken arm when you met him and an escort dieing because he engages in obviously suicidal behavior.

The former is a challenge. The latter breaks verisimilitude.

[Mex]

Standing in the way of escorts will hold them in place allowing you to do things at your own pace. You can also use phase door and other abilities to move them away or onto the portal if you really want to.

If I can fairly reliably save escorts on Madness, I'm sure you can do so on the easier difficulties.

A predictable AI is probably better than any intelligent one that will act semi-randomly.

Furthermore, although I don't agree with this, escorts are meant to be an optional part of the game and you are not meant to be able to reliably save every one of them. Besides the fact that they run around in panic is consistent with someone that is inexperienced in combat.

My advice is to simply manipulate it to your advantage as a different AI could be a lot worse.

[grayswandir]

Basically, escorts are not meant to be "You hide in a corner while I clear the level" - there has to be some element of risk, or it kind of kills the point.
Right now that's done by making them constantly move towards the exit.

Another alternative would be giving you finer control (Stop, Go, Go here, etc.), but then we'd need something else to add pressure. Maybe a time limit based on the distance to the portal? Maybe monsters keep getting summoned every so often if the escort doesn't see any?

[Radon26]

after JUST miss-clicking when choosing the reward, I have to say:

ADD A CONFIRMATION WINDOW AFTER CHOOSING THE REWARD!!!

[breadsmith]

I must wholeheartedly agree with the above comment.

[astreoth]

after JUST miss-clicking when choosing the reward, I have to say:

ADD A CONFIRMATION WINDOW AFTER CHOOSING THE REWARD!!!

this THIS NEEDS TO HAPPEN

[cctobias]

Really good addon:

http://te4.org/games/addons/tome/hz-escorts

Escorts Enhanced

Various enhancements to escort quest NPCs:
- Escorts now follow the player when not close to the portal.
- Escorts occasionally say useful things.
- Escorts heal 5% of their maximum health per turn.

As this person pointed out there is no reason to get agitated or agitate for DG to change anything. Solutions already exist. I use the above addon and you can play online just fine with it in. The escorts are much less stupid and they are tougher. I would only say that there should be a second addon that makes them behave the same as this addon but adds no extra survivability. Either way I find this addon actually more fun as I have had some interesting cases in daikara where I was able to execute a strategic withdrawal teleporting back and forth as my escort had gone a separate way. Getting him to survive in this way with about 10% left rather than simply being torn through like tissue paper was fairly satisfying. In vanilla game this would have simply beeen "Ok escort is dead in next turn or two, I will run or kill these things because without target phase door teleporting him away those giant stone throwers WILL kill him" or whatever. Generally if the portal is nice and close then escort is easy no matter what. Also if you just get single mobs one by one and can block the escort its easy, this doesn't change. But in more open areas the behavior change is less frustrating and in certain circumstances of many mobs the extra healing is good enough that you can get an interesting fight rather than an escort death sentence.

However the escorts of this addon are maybe a little too tough in that "normal" or one or two mobs are usually fairly trivial. However on say NM an orc assassin will still seriously hurt or kill em. They are definitely killable, but really on normal they can take most single normal mobs themselves, so you are mostly trying to avoid getting mobbed or stopping them from being targetted by a rare/boss.

Personally I also use the Succor addon so that I can choose my type of escort. This game is not like DCSS, its not nearly as emergent when it comes to character development(not god or bad, its just the way it is), many builds are solidly planned out level by level so random talents have no real play-value in this context. In game like DCSS where any character can learn anything at any time as long as they find the right thing in the dungeon (weapon, spell book, evocable, god altar etc) this is different. Tome 4 is a class based game with a hierarchal advancement structure I find random escort type to be contrary to its base design theme so I use the Succor addon. Others probably disagree but its all good because you can simply not use the mod.

Both work currently and work online, the only thing that changes is your addon list. So just use these addons and thank the authors of them.

[Sradac]

I'd personally like to see more variety in the random quests. Right now its just escorts. Back in ToME2 you had a variety of different types like the lost sword quests, or save the damsel quests.

I wouldn't be against things similar to this, lost sword type quest where you need to kill X number of OOD enemies. Save the lost adventurer where they are trapped in a room and you need to clear it.

It'd add more variety, and a different type of challenge to the random quests. Instead of hoping the escort AI dosent do something stupid, you could instead test your mettle against stronger enemies. Lost sword might be a bit harsh, as these optional quests should probably be opt-in only.

Maybe restrict them to special vaults, and instead of "lost sword" with roaming OOD enemies its "Hey there's this treasure vault here and theres a special Sword of Foo Slaying in it that I want! If you get me that sword, everything else in the vault is yours plus I'll teach you something I've learned in my time"

That may be too similar to the damsel, so maybe instead it could be "These mean orcs / bandits / elves / demons / whatever ood enemy will be used robbed me blind, they even took my families heirloom necklace! It has no value beyond being sentimental to my family and I NEED it back! They've setup their camp / lair / outpost / fortress in this area. If you go in and clear it out, I'll teach you whatever I can!"

The second one is less "fetch the item" and more "kill X number of enemies" like the old lost sword was.

Just some ideas.

[Zizzo]

Honestly? The entire design of the escort quests has always kind of rubbed me the wrong way. It's a quest that can be failed for reasons beyond the player's control --- and from the player's perspective, that's not meaningfully distinguishable from a luck-based quest.

Basically, escorts are not meant to be "You hide in a corner while I clear the level" - there has to be some element of risk, or it kind of kills the point.

Speak for yourself. One of my favorite tricks (when I remember to do it) is to backtrack through Dreadfell a couple times while I'm clearing it; if you're lucky, you can pick up an escort quest on an already cleared level.

I'd personally like to see more variety in the random quests. Right now its just escorts. Back in ToME2 you had a variety of different types like the lost sword quests, or save the damsel quests.

Now, this I wholeheartedly endorse. T2's Princess quest and Lost Sword quest have the distinct advantage over T4's escort quests that, as per the above, there's nothing beyond the player's control that can cause you to fail those quests.

[angstymeierlink]

Good post Zizzo

[cctobias]

Honestly? The entire design of the escort quests has always kind of rubbed me the wrong way. It's a quest that can be failed for reasons beyond the player's control --- and from the player's perspective, that's not meaningfully distinguishable from a luck-based quest.

Basically, escorts are not meant to be "You hide in a corner while I clear the level" - there has to be some element of risk, or it kind of kills the point.

Speak for yourself. One of my favorite tricks (when I remember to do it) is to backtrack through Dreadfell a couple times while I'm clearing it; if you're lucky, you can pick up an escort quest on an already cleared level.

I'd personally like to see more variety in the random quests. Right now its just escorts. Back in ToME2 you had a variety of different types like the lost sword quests, or save the damsel quests.

Now, this I wholeheartedly endorse. T2's Princess quest and Lost Sword quest have the distinct advantage over T4's escort quests that, as per the above, there's nothing beyond the player's control that can cause you to fail those quests.

I have to say its kind of galling to zone into a zone, have escort dialog pop up and when you look at the map spawn its a situation where you would normally just teleport away from it and take from a more tactically advantageous route.

So you are presented with the choice of a) try it and hope not to die and almost certainly fail the escort quest but off chance you don't or b) let em die and do the tactically better option.

There are a few limited number of tactics that can help but many things with escorts be very build dependent. The above situation favors builds that can face tank or have massive aoes that doesn't kill escorts.

Another useful thing is targetted phase dooring your escort somewhere safer.

But there are just too many situations where you are just like "Well sorry dude, looks like you are gonna die and I need like just oooooooone more generic point to save your ass and well I don' t have it. I hope you the enjoy the rest of your life because its only gonna last about, um, 5 more seconds, I am outta here."

[starsapphire]

And boy were all the rumors about unreliable adventurers true. I'd heard that many, many escorted people die when their adventurer flees and protects himself. It is TRUE. Once I got an escort, I headed off in the right direction immediately. However, for some reason, he did not immediately follow, let alone lead. Didn't he know the way to go? Foolish man. Why am I offering my special trainings to someone who doesn't even know where the local portals are! Fortunately I survived, but no thanks to him. I won't even mention his snoring...

---lore 'history of the Sunwall', Loremaster Verutir's note

Just imagine what they think of a adventurer.

[ibanix]

Escorts are doable. Just play smart.

Not able to complete them? Play smarter.

[cctobias]

Escorts are doable. Just play smart.

Not able to complete them? Play smarter.

I hope you aren't saying all escort spawns in all games are doable. Because if you are you are full of it. Sometimes you get a spawn or map where your escort is going to die no matter what you do using vanilla escorts.

I have gotten escorts to survive on Madness, its not like I think these are impossible but pretending they are just fine and always or almost always doable, is not going to convince anyone of anything because its just obviously not true. Its very easy to get screwed in Dreadfell. Anyone playing the game for any real length of time has had a "Well this guy is dead" moment.