Is the grand corruptor too strong? (spoilers)

[MarginalMagus]

I concur, spoilers are significant in a way they needn't be, if only the quests and dungeons were more informative.

[chronomancer]

There isn't any warning to a player in regards to Corrupter/Shadowflame. Up to the point of meeting the Grand Corrupter, none of the other Rhaloran Elves have been dishing out Fire Damage and the player may very well never experienced a Corrupter enemy with Fearscape beforehand - which notably will lock the player into combat from which he can't escape.

I found this to be true as well. My first ever experience with the Fearscape was this fight, and I was totally confused at to what was going on or why. Without any foreknowledge of how to get out, my character simply died, none the wiser as to what had happened or how it could have been prevented. Presumably if I'd previously played a corrupter that would have been a non-issue, but since it's not a starting class, odds of this happening to a new player are very high.

One "fix" would be to add earlier & easier fearscape fights. I somewhat dislike this idea (because I dislike fearscape fights in general), but one need not seed the entire game with them; simply having a single guaranteed (and easier) fearscape encounter prior to the Grand Corrupter would at least give newbs a chance to learn the rules of the environment in a less deadly context. Not sure if that would have saved my first character - as an archer who specialized in hit & run tactics rather than defence/healing, he probably lacked the ability to survive the environmental flames, never mind the boss. (Generally, most fights in the game permit a ranged attacker to take a hit on their sheild infusion, then run away & heal if necessary. Not so practical in a setting with unavoidable DOT.)

[HousePet]

New players should be getting the hang of how the game works by this far in though.
They have already had an experience of a boss they couldn't teleport away from, the Wierdling Beast.
And they have faced a boss that is good at regenerating, the Wierdling Beast again. Though it is clear why that happens. Maybe the lore on Grand Corruptor Fearscaping should include that the flames are healing him?
The unavoidable damage over time is sort of new, though its a bit like a disease if you don't have a cure magical/disease.
However, if you haven't noticed the not so subtle hint of the incinerated landscape, pools of lava and fire elementals as a hint that fire damage might be around, I don't think we can warn you. (Pointing out that the Grand Corruptor is a Rhaloren and all the other Rhaloren don't use fire damage doesn't really work, as a new player doesn't know the boss is going to be a Rhaloren Corruptor.)

Finally, the game should have surprising challenges. There is a difference between learning from experiences and learning from spoilers. This doesn't require learning from spoilers. Every player is capable of solving this for themselves, and they will feel good when they do work out how to beat the bugger. Exploring, finding new challenges, and working out how to beat them is a major part of what makes this game fun. Most bosses (including this one) are a good balance between requiring raw power versus a specific strategy. Its the middle ground between the two that allows you to come up with creative solutions and combos. Too far toward requiring raw power means you end up grinding for levels to progress the game. Too far towards requiring a specific strategy means you end up needing a spoiler to determine exactly what you need to do, or on screen instructions.

The solutions I know for Fearscape are:
Keep out of range. Its range 6 so he can't use it if we stay back. (good creative solution)
Dispel it.
Out tank the damage.
Do damage faster than he can heal.
Slap a penalty on his healing.
Disable the guy so he can't cast it.

Every character can do at least one of these, if not two.

[anathema]

Most bosses (including this one) are a good balance between requiring raw power versus a specific strategy. Its the middle ground between the two that allows you to come up with creative solutions and combos. Too far toward requiring raw power means you end up grinding for levels to progress the game. Too far towards requiring a specific strategy means you end up needing a spoiler to determine exactly what you need to do, or on screen instructions.

The solutions I know for Fearscape are:
Keep out of range. Its range 6 so he can't use it if we stay back. (good creative solution)
Dispel it.
Out tank the damage.
Do damage faster than he can heal.
Slap a penalty on his healing.
Disable the guy so he can't cast it.

Every character can do at least one of these, if not two.

I agree on the first part, there is a great line between strategy and raw power in TOME, and imo it is responsible for much of the player choice available (do i just go for it or do i look for the tool i need). However i disagree that the corruptor is balanced.
Lets take the weirdling beast as you mentioned him; if you can stop his healing, he is pretty straightforward, but if you cant, you still have the option of trying to burst him down after his regen runs out, and it is actually doable (i almost never use healing reduction). And while you cant teleport to safety against the weirdling beast, you will quickly realize you can just take the stairs to safety, and come back later when you are stronger. The grand corruptor is in my experience MUCH harder, bursting him down is very iffy because of his bone shield, and killing him slowly is almost out of the question because of his insane damage, it is generally unrealistic to beat him at your own level unless you have a hard counter to him.
As for the solutions to the fearscape, we arrive at the fact that certain classes have it a lot harder than others. For instance, my recent death to him was a sun paladin: staying out of range 6 is not an option, dispelling, disabling and healing reduction are not options either, which leaves "kill him before you die". I dont think i need to tell you how that went; despite having insane damage myself, and being relatively tanky, it was just not enough, mainly because of his high damage and annoying invis + heal.

Now, i know people are generally against a nerf, and i dont think a nerf is appropriate either. But a change to make him more "accessible", i suppose, would make him easier for some classes, but keep the challenge for the ones that posses the solution to him almost by default.

As for the damage type and prior exposure, i dunno, i dont think balancing around newer players is the right approach. Because they probably dont have the knowledge to find a solution to most of the problems they encounter anyway; maybe just give a small text box explaining the fearscape, after you die?

So, back to my first sentence, the whole "do i go for it or do i look for the tool i need" does not apply to the grand corruptor, if you go for it, you will almost certainly just fall short and die. As i said in my first post, i personally think this is okay, or i would have, if he wasnt the only boss in the whole game that this applied to. There are certain other bosses that also require specific solutions, but you dont get absolutely destroyed if you dont bring it, you can either just escape, or secure a narrow victory anyway.
Lets look at urkis for a moment, odds are you will get destroyed the first time you meet him, however, it is very easy to tell that he does lightning damage, and lots of it, and not much else. After learning that, its very easy to think of the solution, and then execute it (keep lightning res gear from level 1 onwards). The same applies to the weirdling beast, there is 1 solution, and if you dont have it, it is still pretty easy to identify when you might be able to burst him down anyway.
Back to the grand corruptor: he is such a complicated enemy, that you often cant even identify the deciding factor in your loss, and even if you can, how do you apply the knowledge to your next character? It is such specific things that make you lose to him, that it often doesnt apply to other classes.
Now that i think about it, it might just be a problem with certain classes, but i think changing the encounter is preferable to changing a class after all.

Anyway, what do you think?

Edit: just wanna point out that part of my post is in response to yours (housepet), and some of it is more general, i hope i dont come across as demanding that you respond to everything

[chronomancer]

The solutions I know for Fearscape are:
Keep out of range. Its range 6 so he can't use it if we stay back. (good creative solution)
Every character can do at least one of these, if not two.

This is my favorite solution, and as an experienced player, it greatly contributes to how I handle this encounter these days. (If I played a melee class I would probably just avoid the fight, which as noted, is totally an option - for a player who knows about it.) However... is there any way for a player to know about the range limit, other than to read spoilers or play a corrupter themselves? My archer could *easily* have pulled this off, but I wasn't able to exercise the option because I had no idea it existed. The first time around, I didn't even realize it was a talent, and assumed it was an unavoidable scripted boss event.

If this option is removed, is there still a solution for every class? (I haven't played every class yet, so I can't comment.) I would argue that Zigur talents don't count; my first character never knew Zigur was an option, I can only guess his early use of a rune kept him out.

Again, as an experienced player, ranged and/or antimagic approaches can shut the boss down before fearscape even starts. (Are there any magical melee classes? I suppose they might have some difficulty?) My concern is mostly for the first-time player, though to be honest, I don't think it's a *huge* deal - if a player has to die once, read the forums, and come away with a solution, and is thereafter equipped to handle the situation, it's more of a speed bump than a true barrier to fun play.

[HousePet]

Well if you are going to say your first character didn't know about Zigur talents, I'd like to point out that my first character died way before getting to this zone.

[chronomancer]

Well if you are going to say your first character didn't know about Zigur talents, I'd like to point out that my first character died way before getting to this zone.

touche!

[anathema]

Are there any magical melee classes?

The sun paladin at least, that i can recall. Your only options for staying out of range of fearscape is sun ray (range 7), radiance dot (range 8 ), and i guess you can shoot bolts with your staff if you got staff combat (if you havent played a sun paladin, those are not viable ways to kill the grand corruptor) Whats more is they have literally 2 disables, both melee stuns, one for 1h and one for 2h. Incidentally, is fearscape a debuff? maybe you could remove it with providence.

edit: Just noticed that in theory, you could use a category point to unlock combat techniques and then get perfect strike, which lets you fight unseen targets without penalty, and then burst him down with melee strikes (sun paladin gets some pretty powerful attacks). But then you are investing a category point and at least 3 class points just for that, which means you dont get either celestial/radiance or celestial/guardian (or celestial/crusader if you are 2h), which are both extremely powerful.
All in all your options are very limited

[Davion Fuxa]

Magical Melee classes in game consist of the Arcane Blade, Spellblade, Reaver, and Sun Paladin Classes.

[jotwebe]

Magical Melee classes in game consist of the Arcane Blade, Spellblade, Reaver, and Sun Paladin Classes.

Shadowblade, I think you meant to say. Stone Wardens would probably also count since going AM would disable a significant chunk of their talents.

One defense that hasn't been mentioned is using an infusion or talent to clear the magical effect... I think that works, anyway, never used it.

I think that Vile Life making it more desirable to do the fight early is a good thing. Hard choices are good things! People have been winning all classes before Vile Life was a thing.

So I don't really think there is a problem here, but I do like the idea of a relatively easy Fearscape-using enemy you'll encounter earlier. Giving Fearscape to the rhaloren camp boss sadly wouldn't help, since he'd run out of vim pretty much immediately, and new players would form the impression that they can easily wait it out. Since especially new players might skip a lot of areas before coming to the Mark of the Spellblaze, I think the best thing would be a

Mini-boss for Spellblaze 1

Name: Herald of the Spellblaze? Champion of the Fearscape?
What he does: Rush or similar, Fearscape (always TL 1, make him real eager to cast this if possible), maybe some more fire stuff.
Melee-based so that it's not simply the GC fight in miniature, should also help melee classes with mobility problems since he'll (or she'll, for that matter) come right at them.

When defeated, shouts something like: "You may have bested me, but you will not stand before my master!" or "My master is near, and he will avenge me!"

Another thing that might be good would be to change the Fearscape announcement to be a bit more informative... add "Infernal flames are everywhere, that heal instead of burn the denizens of this place, and those that have formed a connection with it." Or maybe not, it's called Fearscape actually, and I like that it's scary and confusing.

[Davion Fuxa]

I did indeed mean Shadowblade.

Adding some Uniques or Bosses besides the Grand Corrupter could be a neat idea to sprucing up the instance. If Ogres get added in I would think they would be a good candidate for it.

[jotwebe]

Ogre Doombringer with Fearscape.

[Delmuir]

I absolutely mean no disrespect but I don't understand this conversation.

When are you all attacking the Grand Corruptor? The only class I every attack him with before returning west AND clearing out the backup guardians is a Necromancer.

For one, his name is "The Grand Corruptor." That alone, and the ominous mark that indicates the level should be a warning.

Personally, I like the occasional surprise boss, even if it kills me. I find the Melinda quest to be the most challenging surprise level in the game… that one has killed me more often than I care to admit.

[Kwibus]

After reading the first page of comments in this thread I really had the urge to post my 2cents.

So much complaining about people not knowing what's coming and it not being newbie friendly that there are no clear hints that shit is about to hit the fan.
Thank god it's like that. You die and start over and if you start you are likely to play Adventure mode so you'll get more chances. This is a hard game and let's keep it like that.
Im a father and got a fulltime job so when I die at lvl30 it will take a lot of time to get my next char at that level again, it's not stopping me though

[Kwibus]

I absolutely mean no disrespect but I don't understand this conversation.

When are you all attacking the Grand Corruptor? The only class I every attack him with before returning west AND clearing out the backup guardians is a Necromancer.

For one, his name is "The Grand Corruptor." That alone, and the ominous mark that indicates the level should be a warning.

Personally, I like the occasional surprise boss, even if it kills me. I find the Melinda quest to be the most challenging surprise level in the game… that one has killed me more often than I care to admit.

Agreed. I allready look forward to these encounters, despite the fact that they more often then not killed me. Allthough I have to admit this was on normal difficulty as it were the only real challenges. On nightmare both enounters simply killed me, but it's up to me to improve my game to kill them next time.