Reworking Chronomancy ver 2

[0player]

The levels of paradox like this should probably be arranged for... can Impossible Death reset your paradox level?
(The paradox in question being a little side effect of Preserve Pattern, of course. Unfortunately, my clone wasn't smart enough to switch it right off, so I had to deal with some fire blankets and teleports. What's the name of that fire blanket, I wonder?)

[Kiba333]

How about locking speed control?
(and in turn buffing it a bit if neccessary, to keep it interesting?)

[malboro_urchin]

First off, edge, I love your work! You're doing an excellent job of creating interesting, multidimensional (ha!) talents, and you've really breathed new life into chronomancy!

1. No, I did mean that Carbon in particular feels more like an SW (Stone Warden) tree. Covering yourself with spikes of carbon and firing them at people sounds more "master of stone" than "master of time and space" to me.

4. Time Travel is really strong, which throws off the balance of locked trees in general because it's not "what trees do I want" but "I want Time Travel and X other trees." I would like to see some of the talents moved to unlocked trees and Time Travel reserved for skills that pure temporal PMs will be using most.

I agree on both counts.

Carbon never really felt to me like it fit Paradox Mages very well. I don't get what any of that has to do with chronomancy, outside of providing a non-temporal damage avenue. I think, if it could somehow be reflavored, it might fit the class better. PM's have always been masters of spacetime, but always in a manner more complex than your average Stone archmage who magically flings rocks & stone at things.

While I know from experience that Archmages are OP and not a good basis for comparison, I think the Time Travel tree could be ever-so-slightly analogous to one of the Archmage's advanced elemental trees, in that Time Travel talents should provide the most benefit/synergies to a PM specializing in pure temporal damage. I think the Time Travel talents that any PM would find useful should be moved around. I'm not quite sure where these talents should go, as if they're placed into their own locked tree, we could end up with this same issue all over again.

Just my 2 cents.

[edge2054]

@0player

My gut reaction is to just have it stop absorbing damage after 1k or so but this will still push clones into 100% anomaly chance early game. 41k feels like a ton but the modifier caps at 150% and of course 100% anomaly chance is 100%. Granted, after ten turns 1k will be down to 500 but that's still ten turns of chao. I'm open to suggestions but I don't see an easy way to fix it.

@Kiba

I've gone back and forth on that idea a few times. My hang up is that I like the balance PMs have right now (two Temporal Trees, two Physical, one hybrid, one utility). If I break that balance I'd want to either add another physical tree or drop physical damage completely. Early on I really considered the later but I kinda like how Gravity turned out and I'm hesitant to go that direction now. What bit I've played with it was really fun. My other hang up is that Energy is now locked. Energy and Speed Control have a lot of natural synergy in that one gives you more Speed and the other really lets you make the most of that speed via cooldown reductions. Locking them both would make this build a lot harder to pull off and would result in me either wanting to buff Speed Control, buff Energy, or unlock Energy.

@Carbon and Matter
I can scrap these trees and I get where you guys are coming from. But thematics aside I think Carbon adds to the class. For one it pairs with Gravity, giving players the option to specialize in physical damage. For two I think it's a fun tree. Early on when I was brainstorming this stuff I considered scrapping the physical component completely. Instead I decided to try to expand it. I'm fairly happy with those results. I think Gravity is a lot more interesting than it used to be. I think Carbon is fun. I think the ideas for Matter have potential. I'm not saying I'm not open to ideas but until there's a better idea Carbon, Gravity, and Matter will probably stay.

So my hang up with a lot of this stuff is really physical damage. I want some builds to really stand out to players and I think the current trees really give players some obvious choices on how to build. This is a very good thing in my opinion on a class with as many complex mechanics as Paradox Mage's have as it helps to alleviate some of the analysis paralysis player's are going to experience. Dropping Carbon without also dropping Gravity is going to create a disparity. Unlocking Time Travel will too.

*fake edit* If I just renamed Carbon - Metal would it be more fitting?

[HousePet]

Metal doesn't really have much to do with Time/Space either.

For using spacetime to produce physical like effects, the obvious one is Gravity. Something like the Distortion from Solipsist is easily produced with shearing/tidal forces from warping spacetime. Discontinuities in space allow for extremely good cutting.

[malboro_urchin]

@Carbon and Matter
I can scrap these trees and I get where you guys are coming from. But thematics aside I think Carbon adds to the class. For one it pairs with Gravity, giving players the option to specialize in physical damage. For two I think it's a fun tree. Early on when I was brainstorming this stuff I considered scrapping the physical component completely. Instead I decided to try to expand it. I'm fairly happy with those results. I think Gravity is a lot more interesting than it used to be. I think Carbon is fun. I think the ideas for Matter have potential. I'm not saying I'm not open to ideas but until there's a better idea Carbon, Gravity, and Matter will probably stay.

So my hang up with a lot of this stuff is really physical damage. I want some builds to really stand out to players and I think the current trees really give players some obvious choices on how to build. This is a very good thing in my opinion on a class with as many complex mechanics as Paradox Mage's have as it helps to alleviate some of the analysis paralysis player's are going to experience. Dropping Carbon without also dropping Gravity is going to create a disparity. Unlocking Time Travel will too.

*fake edit* If I just renamed Carbon - Metal would it be more fitting?

I haven't played around with the latest updates, so I can't comment on current talent functionality, but I do agree with your ideas of enabling build diversity and providing players with a few obvious build choices right off the bat. The design intent of these trees, to provide a way for PM's to build for physical damage spells, is a good one, and the class is definitely better off in having access to the physical damage element alongside temporal damage.

I don't think you'd have to scrap either the Carbon or Matter trees, nor did I recommend or intend to recommend scrapping those trees. I just don't see how the fluff of Carbon relates to the Paradox Mage's bailiwick of spacetime mastery. I don't think that physical damage trees in general don't suit the PM; rather, I think that the flavor of the current trees don't suit the PM.

Side note: HousePet's idea of using discontinuities in space to cause physical-typed damage is a very interesting one indeed!

[edge2054]

So maybe something like...

Quantum Spike - Rip the target apart at a molecular level
Something - Shard Storm but based on distortions in spacetime
Sheer - Physical damage and stun
Sphere of Destruction

[malboro_urchin]

So maybe something like...

Quantum Spike - Rip the target apart at a molecular level
Something - Shard Storm but based on distortions in spacetime
Sheer - Physical damage and stun
Sphere of Destruction

Those all sound much more PM'y. Like I said earlier, I think changing the names and flavor descriptions of the current trees would be just fine. I don't think they have to be touched mechanically. Maybe graphically, these abilities could make use of those cool ripple effects that Gravity uses, in ways that suit the skill.

[Parcae2]

Well, there is one mechanical problem with the current layout of Carbon: You have to invest in a talent just to get the resources for the other three talents. That aside, I actually like the tree quite a lot; I just think it would fit better on a different class.

Then there's the physical/temporal/warp mix. Currently, there are three physical trees and two warp ones. You say there are two temporal trees, but I don't see it. I only see a few temporal damage talents mixed in with a bunch of utility talents. That's why I've suggested moving Cease to Exist to a locked tree and making it do temporal resist reduction only.

Regarding Damage Smearing, I think a Fateweaving/Damage Smearing hybrid would look something like this:

When Spin Fate procs, 1/3-2/3 of the damage is converted to temporal damage over six turns. This damage respects resistances, but ignores affinities and wards.

I don't know how hard it is to code that last part, but I think it's important. Resistances aren't a huge problem because you need to focus your equipment a good deal to get more than 50% until the endgame, and by then lots of monsters (including all orcs) have resistance piercing. 50% (actual, or effective after resistance piercing) would put you pretty close to the 1/3 damage blocking that Fate Weaving currently has.

Affinities aren't a huge deal either, since temporal affinity doesn't really exist on equipment. That's more for future proofing in case artifacts or monsters with temporal affinity are introduced down the road.

Wards, on the other hand, are a HUGE deal. If they're allowed, it basically turns the talent into "ignore X damage, period." That's why TWs are so strong right now - they become completely invulnerable with the right setup. If there's no way to code Damage Smearing so as to avoid wards, it should just be ditched - which would be a pity, because it's a pretty interesting talent thematically, but there you are.

As for the impact of the change on TWs- right now, 100% of TWs are going to take both Fate Weaving and Time Travel, so you're just moving the talent from one must-have tree to another.

...

Finally, regarding unlocking Time Travel: I think it's a good idea, but I also think that a few of the current temporal-focused talents should be regrouped into their own locked tree. Example:

Time Skip
Unnamed Talent
Echoes from the Past (weakened in some way; it's way too good to be in a locked tree right now, because it would make 100% of PMs into temporal PMs. Maybe only have it work on targets with a specific, non-spammable debuff, or something. Or just move it into an unlocked tree and put something else here.)
Cease to Exist (modified to reduce temporal resist only)

[donkatsu]

Regarding Damage Smearing, I think a Fateweaving/Damage Smearing hybrid would look something like this:

When Spin Fate procs, 1/3-2/3 of the damage is converted to temporal damage over six turns. This damage respects resistances, but ignores affinities and wards.

-That, but also change Phase Shift to only have a % chance to proc on any given hit. The max number of procs per turn could still be 1, I just want there to be a reasonable chance that it won't always proc on the same hit as Fateweaving.

-Maybe Echoes of the Past's missing life component could be less effective against bosses? I mean currently it's precisely a boss killer, and not all that overpowered for normal monsters. Rarely do I suggest something be made less effective for bosses but Echoes could use a nerf in that department. Like, half damage against bosses or something. Static Field, a similar talent, went too far into the nerfed for bosses territory, so I would be wary of going overboard. In fact, I'd wait to pass judgement on the temporal vs. physical balance until Matter is done. For all we know Matter could end up with something that blows the current Echoes out of the water.

-I was thinking, for Uncertain Position, what if each clone had a special talent that could detonate the other two clones, thus ending the spell? The talent would not be available to the AI, of course. This would allow the player to choose which clone they want to end up as, without having to do weird, unintuitive summon timer tricks. If the detonations did temporal damage then this could be another source of temporal damage. Finally, it would also solve the issue of clones having 100% major anomaly chance from Preserve Pattern: just switch to a clone that has normal paradox, and detonate the other two before they can muck up the battlefield too much.

[0player]

@0player

My gut reaction is to just have it stop absorbing damage after 1k or so but this will still push clones into 100% anomaly chance early game. 41k feels like a ton but the modifier caps at 150% and of course 100% anomaly chance is 100%. Granted, after ten turns 1k will be down to 500 but that's still ten turns of chao. I'm open to suggestions but I don't see an easy way to fix it.

Hm. Could you make it so that it gobbles damage in chunks of (300/paradox-conversion-rate) and checks for an anomaly chance after each chunk? The description would be something like "<...> the next turn, or each time you damage a timeline for 300 Paradox, this shield can trigger an anomaly. <...>" This would accomodate for skyrocketing paradox "you survived thanks to absorption but you're dead except if you can melee it without talents" cases.
(Btw, I managed to melee them without using talents. My clone, thankfully, expired quickly so that it managed to summon only a fire blanket, and not spacetime tear or infinite hostile clones of himself. Thanks dark god.)

[Kiba333]

How about instead of carbon, turn it into antimatter?

[edge2054]

Great ideas and feedback.

Here's what I'm thinking.

Fate-Threading
Disentangle - Merging the passive targeting of bias weave and the casting part of disentangle.*
Trim Threads - As is.
Preserve Pattern - Will become a combination of what it is now and Damage Smearing, converting a percentage of damage into Paradox damage over time.
Cease To Exist - Will lose all resistance reduction.

Matter**
???
Sheer - Cut damage in a cone.
Quantum Spike - Perhaps this will stun.
Strong Utility/Defensive Talent here

Spacetime Folding
Warp Mines - As is.
Wormhole - As is.
Dimensional Anchor - As is.
Temporal Reprieve - Possibly reworked so it triggers on teleport effects. Still debating how to do this.

Time***
Paradox Bolt - As is.
Time Skip - As is.
Echoes from the Past - Echo damage will be divided by target rank. Base echo damage may go up.
Uncertain Position - As is. Maybe with donkatsu's detonation trick thrown in.

Antimatter locked ****
Antimatter Field - Carbon Growth reworked. Provides Physical Resistance.
??? - Carbon Spikes reworked.
??? - Shard Storm reworked.
Sphere of Destruction - Also reworked but I think the name is fine.

*I know some of you guys want me to put a defensive talent here so you have easier starts on harder difficulties but I really feel the issue of Insane+ starts needs to be addressed at a meta level. Most classes have to wait until higher levels to get their good defensive talents, some all the way till level 22. This talent is the main way for PMs to reduce Paradox now and I don't want a talent point tax on it of any sort. The artifacts of Bias Weave may show up on an artifact or two (the actual bias part as well as the faster recovery from anomalies). Same goes for the increased Paradox recovery from Disentangle (which may or may not stay on the primary talent, depending on how verbose the talent description ends up)

** Still brainstorming this. What I want though is some strong utility for physical PMs and damage based on cutting and pulling things apart. The last talent needs to compete with Preserve Pattern, Temporal Reprieve, and Uncertain Position.

** This will replace Paradox and Timetravel. Temporal Wardens won't have access to this tree and will pick up Warp as their third unlockable tree.

**** Cut damage will come off these talents. I still want them to be charged talents based on Antimatter Field rather than Carbon. So if you cast one you lose your physical resistance until it builds back up. The talents themselves will reduce the target's physical resistance (non-stacking) depending on how much antimatter was used to power them.

Additional Thoughts.
Temporal Wardens will pick up Fate-weaving. Chronomancy or Energy will take its place as their locked generic tree.

The locked 'elemental' trees, Antimatter, Induced Phenomena, Warp, will not require a quest to open up. This will give PMs four locked class trees from the start, counting Spellbinding, which is just one more than TWs.

[Kiba333]

Seems to me things are starting to take a good shape overall.

How about instead of removing all resistance reduction from cease to exist, giving it only temporal resistance reduction . This would make it non-mandatory for physical playstyles while keeping it interesting for temporal builds.

Echoes from the past damage being divided by enemy rank sounds a bit harsh to me. I'd be more comfortable it being divided by Rank/2. That would still be a 60% damage reduction against elite bosses, 50% reduction against bosses, 43% reduction against uniques and rares and 33% against elite.

Also maybe the naming is just a placeholder but "Time" sounds a bit plain, i hope we can come up with something that sounds more awe inspiring and fitting to the concept of dominion over time itself.

[edge2054]

Yeah, time is a bit plain. But it's now a mixture of more generic time effects. Paradox or Timetravel no longer fits. I'm open to suggestions on a better name though.

As to Cease to Exist. Induced Phenomena is the advanced Temporal tree and you get Temporal Resist Pen right out of the gate with it. I don't think the class needs multiple forms of resist reduction; well aside from one for physical and one for temporal. But I'll keep it in mind going forward. If Cease to Exist ends up too weak temporal resist reduction may still be an option.

My idea for Echoes was to balance it so it's about half of what it is now on bosses (rank 4). Basically if I double the current value and then divide by rank we'd end up with 1/2 of the damage it currently does on bosses. This will turn it into an excellent clean up spell on weaker monsters without making it to strong against bosses. At least, that's my hope.