Respec'ing Respec (active in Nulltweaks)

[Doctornull]

ToME 1.2.3 restricts talent reallocation to only occur in towns. That's nice because it prevents a specific kind of very boring yet optimal in-combat re-spec, but it's flawed because it still uses the talent re-spec counts which were fairly reasonable for per-level re-spec, even though you'll now probably gain several levels between visits to town.

The solution that I just uploaded in Nulltweaks is simple: keep the town-only re-spec, but allow the user to choose how many generic and class talent points can be re-assigned, and the default is 100 of each.

Any thoughts on other options or tweaks which might also help the re-spec situation?

Thanks!

[SageAcrin]

-Allow respeccing on the world map(this should be done no matter what, IMO; Difference between towns and world map is negligable and I'm fairly sure this is one line of code, and this saves a lot of load time.).

-Consider trying out a version that just puts actives on cooldown and still only allows for limited respecs, as the current system, but can be used anywhere.

[RedBucket]

The idea for respec timing I liked most was, it takes time for the changes to happen and you need to be resting.

[The Revanchist]

The idea for respec timing I liked most was, it takes time for the changes to happen and you need to be resting.

That seems like the most efficient from a "playing-the-game" point of view, but I'd till opt for a "respec from worldmap".

[jotwebe]

-Consider trying out a version that just puts actives on cooldown and still only allows for limited respecs, as the current system, but can be used anywhere.

This would be my preference.

I'm not too fond about unlimited respec - it just feels like it makes characters interchangeable, and it trivializes some hard choices. But it wouldn't be a constant temptation like the old system, so I wouldn't mind it much.

I also would like to see world map respecs - although towns respecs have a nice roleplay aspect to them. I imagine my guys visiting trainers and such.

[0player]

Why don't just grant 1 respec point for each point spent, but actually consume it when you take it out and reassign to something else? (after closing talent screen, check changes and subtract the amount needed). That would solve the problem of infinite respec works.

[Doctornull]

-Allow respeccing on the world map

Seems doable. Let me see if it is.

-Consider trying out a version that just puts actives on cooldown and still only allows for limited respecs, as the current system, but can be used anywhere.

That has a terrible consequence when used naively by normal people leveling up in combat, and is still possible to abuse for long-cooldown actives or short-cooldown actives, depending on implementation.

I'm not too fond about unlimited respec - it just feels like it makes characters interchangeable, and it trivializes some hard choices. But it wouldn't be a constant temptation like the old system, so I wouldn't mind it much.

Note that my intent here is to allow the player to set limits on respec, so you can use this addon purely to compensate for the multi-level delay between town visits rather than as a full respec. I'm just not sure exactly how many points is reasonable to guarantee that result, but please feel free to experiment and tell me.

Why don't just grant 1 respec point for each point spent, but actually consume it when you take it out and reassign to something else?

Because that's actual work as opposed to the kind of small tweaks which DarkGod and I are doing.

[grayswandir]

My idea:

Allow respec at any time.
You may take a single point out of a talent if you have not altered the point count within the last 6 character levels. Meaning it'd take 30 character levels to completely forget a talent from 5/5.

I think this'll be fairly simple to implement, and it gives a feeling of gradually refocusing your character instead of a big, abrupt change. Plus, it encourages experimentation more than the existing system. You can put a point in a talent you haven't used before, and try it out over a few character levels. If you end up not liking it, then you'll only have to wait a few more levels before you get that point back.

[Atarlost]

The big abrupt changes are needed to paper over the hideous flaws in the early game for many otherwise interesting builds. That's why respec was introduced in the first place.

Respec needs to be possible on level up for any build that goes through a point excess so long as the number of points you can float is limited. For example I'm running a bulwark aimed at antimagic and cannot place generic points for fear of burying them if I level. The only places currently unlocked I want points are level or restricted and before I found respec had been crippled I was tossing them in the first racial that only reduces cooldown. I need to be able to take the points out and put them back in after bumping up anything like accuracy that comes available as I level because I can't afford to unfloat the points. Since I can't do that I'm stuck not spending them.

There are also the builds -- like any mage that isn't planning on specializing in fire or lightning -- that is forced to float points in stuff they don't want (like 2/3 of the tribeam) because their actual in build spammables are locked until level 4 or even 10.

[jotwebe]

The big abrupt changes are needed to paper over the hideous flaws in the early game for many otherwise interesting builds. That's why respec was introduced in the first place.

Really? I was under the impression that it was so people could try out a skill before permanently commiting to it.

In fact, checking the earliest threads I found with the word "respec" in them, there were plenty of objections because you could use it to "paper over the hideous flaws in the early game". As I always argue when something is claimed to be necessary (stairdancing, vim for free from summons, instant item switching, etc) because otherwise X would be unfair or Y would be to hard, that just means that X or Y should be fixed. Make a new thread about the specific "hideous flaws" you were thinking of. Everything else is double bad because it prevents X or Y to be fixed.

Respec needs to be possible on level up for any build that goes through a point excess so long as the number of points you can float is limited. For example I'm running a bulwark aimed at antimagic and cannot place generic points for fear of burying them if I level. The only places currently unlocked I want points are level or restricted and before I found respec had been crippled I was tossing them in the first racial that only reduces cooldown. I need to be able to take the points out and put them back in after bumping up anything like accuracy that comes available as I level because I can't afford to unfloat the points. Since I can't do that I'm stuck not spending them.

And this used to be a thing you had to work with and take into account when choosing to go with a build that can't utilize it's points immediately. You've got the option to distribute points suboptimally in the long term or live a bit more dangerously at lower levels by saving the points until you can put them where you want to. Interesting decisions.

There are also the builds -- like any mage that isn't planning on specializing in fire or lightning -- that is forced to float points in stuff they don't want (like 2/3 of the tribeam) because their actual in build spammables are locked until level 4 or even 10.

So then you have like 3 points in a beam that let you get through the early game. Hardly the end of the world. And you're not forced to do it, it just makes the early game a lot easier.