Weapon Swap to counter Disarm

[HousePet]

To be honest, I'm not sure why quick swap takes a full turn.
Is it actually quicker than raiding you backpack?

Could make quick swap times not binary, have it as half an action by default, and have additional bonuses reduce it but it remains above 0.

From what I've seen on the planned Temporal Warden update, they won't have any need for a passive instant quickswap ability. So if people are so opposed to a class having a minor unique feature like faster quickswap, it could be removed.

[grobblewobble]

There are three possibilities:

• Disarm needs to go because it effects different classes too disproportionately.
• Disarm is fine as is.
• Disarm is not fine as is, but would be fine if weapon swapping cleared it.

None of these is the case. It's a frequency thing: Disarm is fine in itself, but the problem is that it's happening way too often. Being completely disabled a few times is a challenge. Being completely disabled in each and every fight is just annoying.

It wouldn't be as bad if there were a lot of counters, as is the case with Stun. But items with disarm immunity are rare and there isn't any talent that helps.

I don't think weapon swapping is a good solution, though. Do we want to force people to spend half their time swapping weapons back and forth?

I say no. Just make disarms less common. Remove it from acid runes, or make acid runes themselves rare.

[Doctornull]

This doesn't solve the issue though

You seem to have a different idea of "the issue". Could you explain what you think the issue is?

As Atarlost mentioned, Disarm does nothing to Brawlers.

Nor dragons. This doesn't really bother me.

To be honest, I'm not sure why quick swap takes a full turn.
Is it actually quicker than raiding you backpack?

It's not quicker unless you have a special bonus, and then it's instant.

Since even looking at your off-slots on the Inventory screen costs you a turn, I'd be in favor of making all quick swaps instant just from a UI perspective.

[emblempride]

This doesn't solve the issue though

You seem to have a different idea of "the issue". Could you explain what you think the issue is?

I guess "issue" isn't the right word seeing as this isn't an imperative, and I hadn't really thought about this prior to this topic, I'll concede that. But swapping your weapon to counter Disarm just makes sense, doesn't it? If there were two variations of Disarm to match up with talents that purposely disable your arms or something, that'd be understandable. But I don't see how this isn't a reasonable solution. Disarm would still have a negative effect in having you waste a turn and pressure not to go back to your primary weapon even when the duration is over.

Since even looking at your off-slots on the Inventory screen costs you a turn, I'd be in favor of making all quick swaps instant just from a UI perspective.

I think the offset should be viewable without taking a turn if possible, and if that's your problem with the way swapping works, that would at least solve that while doing nothing to this idea. Not sure about making it instant though, simply because I like HP's idea and instant swapping in conjunction with that would neuter enemy Disarm. On the other hand, on it's own I wouldn't have a problem with it if implemented.

[Orangeflame]

I thought the idea was that one of your weapon sets would be disarmed - so even if you could quick-swap, you're stuck with your secondary set, and if that also gets disarmed, you're out of luck. This does seem to fit with acidic-type disarms.

[Atarlost]

Frankly, it's ridiculous that you can be disarmed, take a turn to pull a new weapon out of your pack, and still be disarmed. If someone's willing to code a fix for that there's really no excuse to not use it.

[Doctornull]

But swapping your weapon to counter Disarm just makes sense, doesn't it? If there were two variations of Disarm to match up with talents that purposely disable your arms or something, that'd be understandable.

One of the main forms of Disarm is acidic dragon spit which presumably makes your hands too slick to hold your weapon. In that case, picking up a different weapon is dumb.

On the other hand, if a Skeleton Warrior just knocks your weapon out of your hands, then picking up a different weapon does make sense... unless the Skeleton Warrior actually stabbed your hand, and you can't hold any weapon with it until you bandage it up, which takes some time.

So yeah, I don't see quick-swap being a "just makes sense" solution to all cases. The condition system has some abstractions. You've got some assumptions about what the "reality" is behind those abstractions, but your assumptions don't line up with the game's behavior, and therefore you want the game's behavior to change ... instead of re-examining your own assumptions.

Disarm already does have a perfect counter: your physical Wild infusion, or your Heat Beam rune. Maybe you want to get rid of that? I mean a heat beam rune can't pick your weapon up off the floor for you, so how does that pass your "just makes sense" test?

[edge2054]

Frankly, it's ridiculous that you can be disarmed, take a turn to pull a new weapon out of your pack, and still be disarmed. If someone's willing to code a fix for that there's really no excuse to not use it.

As Doctornull pointed out the system is really more abstract than this. Being disarmed may be an injured arm, or acid damage, or having your weapon physically knocked away.

In any event, it's a game. I don't think allowing weapon swap to break disarm would break balance or believability. I think it could add some strategic depth as well as some value to something that's underused.

[emblempride]

But swapping your weapon to counter Disarm just makes sense, doesn't it? If there were two variations of Disarm to match up with talents that purposely disable your arms or something, that'd be understandable.

One of the main forms of Disarm is acidic dragon spit which presumably makes your hands too slick to hold your weapon. In that case, picking up a different weapon is dumb.

On the other hand, if a Skeleton Warrior just knocks your weapon out of your hands, then picking up a different weapon does make sense... unless the Skeleton Warrior actually stabbed your hand, and you can't hold any weapon with it until you bandage it up, which takes some time.

So yeah, I don't see quick-swap being a "just makes sense" solution to all cases. The condition system has some abstractions. You've got some assumptions about what the "reality" is behind those abstractions, but your assumptions don't line up with the game's behavior, and therefore you want the game's behavior to change ... instead of re-examining your own assumptions.

Disarm already does have a perfect counter: your physical Wild infusion, or your Heat Beam rune. Maybe you want to get rid of that? I mean a heat beam rune can't pick your weapon up off the floor for you, so how does that pass your "just makes sense" test?

It's fun when someone is condescending over a non-integral feature of a game.

The way I saw acid runes giving Disarm was that it was covering your weapon in magical acid, making it impossible to use. Clearly you don't see it that way. Assumptions can be made in any case with a status effect where it's not clear how the talent exactly gives this effect. Regardless of what you probably see as my inability to support the idea, you still haven't given a good reason as to why it shouldn't be implemented other than "there are other counters" and "there are abstractions". Which can be said about literally every other status effect. I don't see how adding weapon swap to that list is changing much. The value it gives weapon swapping outweighs whatever you think it's taking away from the game.

[Doctornull]

It's fun when someone is condescending over a non-integral feature of a game.

The fact that you're wrong about this isn't actually a personal attack, nor an insult, nor is it me being condescending.

So far this has been a pretty civil discussion. Please don't ruin that.

The way I saw acid runes giving Disarm was that it was covering your weapon in magical acid, making it impossible to use. Clearly you don't see it that way.

I see it in many possible ways, all at once. Abstract mechanics are cool like that.

When ONE of the possible ways to see it conflicts with the game mechanics, my first instinct is NOT to try to change the game's mechanics.

Regardless of what you probably see as my inability to support the idea, you still haven't given a good reason as to why it shouldn't be implemented other than "there are other counters" and "there are abstractions". Which can be said about literally every other status effect. I don't see how adding weapon swap to that list is changing much. The value it gives weapon swapping outweighs whatever you think it's taking away from the game.

I was posting to demolish your central assertion (about what "just makes sense"), and that was successful, so sure we can change the topic.

Weapon swapping is a unlimited, universal, resource-free, and sometimes even instant action.

Putting an effect clear on a free action is going to make that effect worthless.

I'd much rather just remove Disarm than add a rule which makes Disarm worthless. Same result, less clutter. That said, IMHO removing Disarm would be overkill.

[emblempride]

The fact that you're wrong about this isn't actually a personal attack, nor an insult, nor is it me being condescending.

So far this has been a pretty civil discussion. Please don't ruin that.

My apologies, I felt the same but was bothered by my misinterpretation of tone and acted on impulse. I don't feel that this kind of discussion or what I've said is a matter of right and wrong, but that's separate from the apology, so, to continue:

I see it in many possible ways, all at once. Abstract mechanics are cool like that.

When ONE of the possible ways to see it conflicts with the game mechanics, my first instinct is NOT to try to change the game's mechanics.

I see the point here, but I still fail to see why this change would warrant opposition. It won't neuter Disarm if the effect remains on the particular set. I also don't share Atarlost's concern with having both sets disarmed because worse can happen. And again, a turn still has to be wasted to be able to attack. When a turn is put into question, lots of things have to be considered and the effect still has worth.

Weapon swapping is a unlimited, universal, resource-free, and sometimes even instant action.

Putting an effect clear on a free action is going to make that effect worthless.

I'd much rather just remove Disarm than add a rule which makes Disarm worthless. Same result, less clutter. That said, IMHO removing Disarm would be overkill.

Not sure how hard it is to code, but if Disarm applies specifically to weapon sets, then this is false. And, reiterating once more, far more often than not swapping's a turn waster, which can be devastating.

Either way, it's not going to affect the game enough for me to be giddy about the idea or disappointed if it didn't get in, I just thought it was interesting and neat enough to get implemented for the same reasons others have said.

I was posting to demolish your central assertion (about what "just makes sense"), and that was successful, so sure we can change the topic.

Congrats, you won the big prize! Do you choose Door 1, Door 2, or Door 3? Ffs