Mindslayer balancing

[Suslik]

Also about augmentation. What if we make it the same way as skirmishers weild shields? Like substitute will/cun instead of str/dex when augmentation is active? Is it possible to use will for weapon/armor mastery as well? And what's wrong with adding stats as new brawler adds str/con based on dex/cun? Or temporal warden adds spellpower?

We can do that. One thing I'd like to avoid is the option of maxing your strength and then using some sort of boost strength based on willpower talent to get even more strength.

Then how do we avoid temporal wardens having more spellpower than archmages? Brawlers being tougher than bulwarks?

[edge2054]

Also about augmentation. What if we make it the same way as skirmishers weild shields? Like substitute will/cun instead of str/dex when augmentation is active? Is it possible to use will for weapon/armor mastery as well? And what's wrong with adding stats as new brawler adds str/con based on dex/cun? Or temporal warden adds spellpower?

We can do that. One thing I'd like to avoid is the option of maxing your strength and then using some sort of boost strength based on willpower talent to get even more strength.

Then how do we avoid temporal wardens having more spellpower than archmages? Brawlers being tougher than bulwarks?

Fewer stat requirements. The new Warden will have a talent that works as Weapon Mastery and substitutes Magic for Strength for both weapon damage and physical power. Willpower requirements will be removed and all talents that scaled off willpower will now scale off spellpower. Quantum Feed will be removed.

I'm not sure how Brawlers should be handled or if that's even needed. Keep in mind that Brawlers lose two gear slots.

/thread hijack

[Suslik]

But temporal wardens for now do have quantum feed that grants flat magic stat and brawlers have unified body that grants str/con. No one seems to complain that TW's have more magic than archmages or brawlers are stronger than zerkers. Is it necessarily bad?

There's always another solution of course: give mindslayers innate talents like weapon and armor mastery, merge them with something will/cun based.

[Melkhior]

I also like proposed changes. From my point of view I would like to see Augmentation similar to Lethality, even if we don't change functionality Augmentation, it need some at least some other effect (something like higher chance to crit or so) to make more interesting invest class points in it. Right now Augmentation is only sink of points that help you overcome requirments for other generic talents and weapon str requirment, because at the beginning it's effects are very small.

If you add

Add the use wil/cun effect for weapon stats when Augmentation is active

please consider swaping place in the tree with tel. smash.

Edit: I agree with Suslik that Augmented striking needs synergies and I would prefer his idea:

We can make 2 synergies, but only 1 works if there are 2 effects on the creature.

. I have no problem with long description.

For telekinetically wielded mindstar - I would prefer effect that will be usefull mainly for casters. So we will have tel weapon for meelee slayer, gems for hybrids, mindstar for casters. idea - each turn it will release bolt of mind damage (based on mindstar damage) to nearest enemy max range shorter then other ranged abilities and cost x psi? But it will need to be tested, because it can make caster slayer to good.

[HousePet]

I don't think that how to stop brawlers having higher strength or temporal wardens having higher spellpower is relevant to this thread, but there are a few tricks you can do.
The easiest is to not give such a bonus. In this situation, we are trying to use wil in place of str, so let's just do that.
The code isn't really designed to do that, but anyway that can be dealt with.

For the Strike talents, how about:
Kinetic does extra damage to frozen creatures. Synergises with Thermal Strike, Thermal Leech and Heat Shift.
Thermal remains as is.
Charged has the blind swapped for the stun resist reduction effect. This synergies it with anything that applies freeze or stun effects.
Also have the Charged Strike lighting become radius 1 if it hits a pinned creature. Which synergies with Kinetic Strike and a couple of other things.

Also, I somehow missed Thermal Mastery. I think that it should be doing more damage when you are spending up to half your psi pool. eg, the Fire side of it.

[Suslik]

Brawlers and temporal wardens Are relevant to this thread since they have exactly the same behaviour you're considering wrong. In fact, using same mechanics in other classes proves that it's a common practice and supposed to be ok.

Reason I don't want to replace all str/dex requirements with will/cun is because I cannot imagine doing so without breaking anything heh.

Really looking forward to see striking talents with suggested synergies. Please make sure that charged strike on pinned target does full aoe damage, not just lightning part, otherwise it's not going to be particularly useful. Also what about thermal synergies? Also can we shatter iceblocks on any kinetic talent? That's freaking Sub-Zero way and apparently there's nothing more awesome than shattering your frozen foes with physical attack!

[HousePet]

Well then, I don't see any problem with the suggested change to Augmentation.

Charged Strike effect on a pinned creature will have to be only the lightning part, otherwise it will be way too powerful with Transcendent Electrokinesis.
I didn't list any synergies with Thermal Strike, because it was covered with Charged Strike.
Technically, any damage can shatter an ice block, but only intending for Kinetic Strike to get bonus damage.

[Suslik]

Idea is to get different synergies depending on ability rotation order. If you first thermal strike then kinetic strike, you get bonus damage from shattering iceblock. If you have benefit of hitting pinned target with thermal strike, you'll get interesting strategic option of optimal order being different for different encounters.

[HousePet]

Is it really necessary to have synergies work in both possible directions?
These synergies will extend to other available talents, so you would already have multiple options.

[HousePet]

Test addon made.
Adjusted Absorption numbers.
Adjusted Augmented Striking talents.
Adjusted Focus numbers.
Adjusted Voracity numbers.
Changed Quick as Thought to global speed.
Nerfed Beyond the Flesh.
Removed the Psi Combat flag from Beyond the Flesh.
Frenzied Focus should now spread up to three attacks to range of nearby enemies.

What I haven't done yet:
Added automatic block to Warding Weapon.
Cleaned up Matter is Energy.
Merged Mindhook in anywhere.
Done anything with the Beyond the Flesh pull.
Stuck the Psi Combat flag on Augmentation. Hard to justify lowering all weapon damage to 60%.

Go test those numbers and things while I work on the harder stuff to code.

[Atarlost]

Why is it a problem that mindslayers and brawlers and temporal wardens are stronger than berserkers? What should matter is that berserkers are better at hitting people with greataxes by virtue of having both two handed combat trees and the various style-nonspecific combat trees that mindslayers and temporal wardens and brawlers don't have.

[HousePet]

Updated version:
Warding Weapon now gets autoblocking at raw level 5.
Matter is Energy much simplified (and now compatible with custom gems).
Merged Shattering Charge into TK Throw. Now called Kinetic Surge.
TK Leap bumped to slot 4, Mindhook added to slot 3 of Augmented Mobility.
Mindstar Beyond the Flesh pull effect removed.
It now behaves as a normal weapon, bonking enemies on the head for normal Beyond the Flesh.
Resonant Focus grant increased Psi Pool.
Frenzied Focus will make it behave like a gem does with Frenzied Focus.

[Melkhior]

I probably found bug in last test version. Mindhook have same requirments as tel. leap instead of level req. 8 and willpower 28.

[Melkhior]

Another bug: charged strike

error = "Lua Error: /engine/interface/ActorTalents.lua:175: /engine/interface/ActorTalents.lua:153: /data/talents/psionic/augmented-striking.lua:240: attempt to index global 'src' (a nil value)\
stack traceback:\
\9/data/talents/psionic/augmented-striking.lua:240: in function </data/talents/psionic/augmented-striking.lua:169>\
\9[C]: in function 'xpcall'\
\9/engine/interface/ActorTalents.lua:148: in function </engine/interface/ActorTalents.lua:135>\
At [C]:-1 \
At [C]:-1 error\
At /engine/interface/ActorTalents.lua:175 useTalent\
At /engine/interface/PlayerHotkeys.lua:169 \
At /engine/interface/PlayerHotkeys.lua:161 activateHotkey\
At /mod/class/Game.lua:1966 f\
At /mod/class/Game.lua:1563 fct\
At /engine/interface/PlayerHotkeys.lua:316 \
At /engine/KeyBind.lua:229 "
seen = true
reported = false

This bug don't appear always, but when appear, then damege from charged strike is applied, but chrged strike isn't set on cooldown.

[HousePet]

Okay, find more bugs and I'll patch it.