Proposal: Vampires as an Unlockable Race

[Fortescue]

Yeah. I don't know, it isn't a huge priority of mine. I'm more curious about the backlash and the challenge of making one that is good enough to get into ToME at this point than actually caring about if I can be a Vampire or not.

[astreoth]

fair enough but your proposal needs some work you can find in game vampire lore in dreadfell obviously and there is dust to dust as well which I would suggest reading since the closest thing in game to vampires turning into bats is when the master turns to dust and reforms and that may be more a mix of necromancy and vampiric power than vampirism alone.

[Fortescue]

fair enough but your proposal needs some work you can find in game vampire lore in dreadfell obviously and there is dust to dust as well which I would suggest reading since the closest thing in game to vampires turning into bats is when the master turns to dust and reforms and that may be more a mix of necromancy and vampiric power than vampirism alone.

Yeah Edge went over some in game data about NPC vampires with me that would be useful to implement. I think what is really going on though is that Vampires in ToME just aren't well defined period. DarkGod has said that like any other Undead they can be feral or intelligent, and are powered by arcane magic. This makes me think there is really no reason you can't play as one, unless they're "more powerful" than skeletons and ghouls by default. Maybe they are, when I think about it. I seem to remember more high powered Vampires than Ghouls or Skeletons in my play throughs.

In my design I was going for a magic focused Undead since the other 2 are not like that, without really considering what NPC Vampires are like. I suppose that would be a barrier to core implementation

[Davion Fuxa]

Vampires are definitely stronger then most other undead currently in the game. The high powered vampires you were thinking of were the Elite's - Vampire Lord and Elder Vampire:

The Vampire Lord has always been a troublesome opponent - though recently he's been nerfed back somewhat due to a lot of Inscriptions gaining the ability to remove detrimental Magical effects; he has Impending Doom and I know on my past Shaloran Berserker playthrough that was a real concern.

The Elder Vampire was notably a weak Elite Vampire, but I think it's been elevated in status above the Vampire Lord now - since it gained the ability to summon 'Lesser Undead' which includes said Vampire Lord (and Skeletons, and Ghouls, etc) in the last Update I think. He also has a few tricks outside of that as well - learned his Forgery for example can also summon undead.

In regards to the current Undead classes by the way, it's kind of hard to say that Ghouls and Skeletons are oriented toward any particular combat type.

Ghoul characters can do quite well as Necromancers, Reavers, Corrupters, Paradox Mages, Anorithil, etc. Really with Ghouls having negative global speed, a popular strategy to overcome that is to pair them up with classes that can counteract that slow negative speed. Necromancer's do it with pets, the Defilers have Diseases (which also makes Gnaw very popular for use with them), Paradox Mages have speed boosts and both Paradox Mages and Anorithils can be built as deadly Damage over Time classes where you simply sit on the enemy to kill them. They can also do well as melee classes due to their higher hitpoints, immunities, and racials but they aren't really oriented to them over spellcasters in anyway.

In regards to Skeletons... in my opinion aren't that overly good (nor overly bad) at any class you pair them with. Archmage and Arcane Blades are very good combinations for them due to Aegis and their racials but in everything else they tend to average out - be it in melee centred classes or more spellcastery ones.

[Mewtarthio]

Worth noting: in IRC, DarkGod mentioned that vampires are very much monsters (Nosferatu), not the "can masquerade as sexy humans" variety.

Per "Dust to Dust":

As said before, a vampire's greatest strength is its resemblance to a living man, both in mind and body. Thanks to this, vampires are known for residing comparatively close to normal towns and villages far more than other undead. Some have even been known to keep their lairs within these communities themselves! Despite their resemblance however, there are many telltale signs of vampirism: Unnaturally pale skin, long and distinctive fangs, an aversion to sunlight, and much more besides.

They can't hold up to a lot of scrutiny, but seeing as you can walk around as a lich or a demon without any trouble, vampires should be fine.

This makes me think there is really no reason you can't play as one, unless they're "more powerful" than skeletons and ghouls by default. Maybe they are, when I think about it. I seem to remember more high powered Vampires than Ghouls or Skeletons in my play throughs.

Vampires are a tier above ghouls and skellies, but that mainly seems to be because they've all got some training in necromancy (ie because they are intelligent). PC Undead are also unusually powerful thanks to their freakish intelligence, so I don't see a disconnect here.