Class idea: Rimelord[Coders wanted!]

All new ideas for the upcoming releases of ToME 4.x.x should be discussed here

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NemesisZeru
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Re: Class idea: Gelid

#31 Post by NemesisZeru »

malboro_urchin wrote:imho Rimelord would fit just fine for a wielder of cold, regardless of whether they channeled it through might or magic.
Rimelord'd work, then. Can't exactly change the topic name, but eh...y'know.

Wait. I TOTALLY can! :3

Anyways, I guess the next step is to find a coder? I'm told figuring out numbers first wasn't the best of calls, but ah well...they still serve to sorta show that skill A is stronger then skill B, etc etc. General guidelines, rather then super-strict absolute numbers. x3

malboro_urchin
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Re: Class idea: Gelid

#32 Post by malboro_urchin »

NemesisZeru wrote:
malboro_urchin wrote:imho Rimelord would fit just fine for a wielder of cold, regardless of whether they channeled it through might or magic.
Rimelord'd work, then. Can't exactly change the topic name, but eh...y'know.

Wait. I TOTALLY can! :3

Anyways, I guess the next step is to find a coder? I'm told figuring out numbers first wasn't the best of calls, but ah well...they still serve to sorta show that skill A is stronger then skill B, etc etc. General guidelines, rather then super-strict absolute numbers. x3
Now that you've tapped into the power that is the changing of topic names, attach a great big [coders wanted!] sign to this topic! :P
Mewtarthio wrote:Ever wonder why Tarelion sends you into the Abashed Expanse instead of a team of archmages lead by himself? They all figured "Eh, might as well toss that violent oaf up in there and see if he manages to kick things back into place.

NemesisZeru
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Re: Class idea: Gelid

#33 Post by NemesisZeru »

malboro_urchin wrote:
NemesisZeru wrote:
malboro_urchin wrote:imho Rimelord would fit just fine for a wielder of cold, regardless of whether they channeled it through might or magic.
Rimelord'd work, then. Can't exactly change the topic name, but eh...y'know.

Wait. I TOTALLY can! :3

Anyways, I guess the next step is to find a coder? I'm told figuring out numbers first wasn't the best of calls, but ah well...they still serve to sorta show that skill A is stronger then skill B, etc etc. General guidelines, rather then super-strict absolute numbers. x3
Now that you've tapped into the power that is the changing of topic names, attach a great big [coders wanted!] sign to this topic! :P
How diabolical! Done. :3

Sradac
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Re: Class idea: Rimelord[Coders wanted!]

#34 Post by Sradac »

hahaha...oh man these names keep throwing me off. I saw the new one and my mind read "Crimelord" :mrgreen:

Maybe instead of giving them a name that describes their elemental affinity, give them a bit of lore and name them based on that.

You could call them like, "Wolves of the North". A group of elite soldiers / mercenary company /secret order / whatever from the cold, bitter north. Like the frost wolves themselves, they have adapted to, and even adopted, the frigid airs of the north.

Then you could name the individual classes based upon specialty. I dont know how many you have in mind but I think I've seen mage and tanky character pop up in here.

Give them wolfy names, or icy names either could maybe work.

tanky character "wolf" name - Alpha, Northern Alpha, Frostwolf, Frostborn, whatever
tanky character "icy" name - Glacier, Squall, Zephyr, Rantha's Claw, whatever

NemesisZeru
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Re: Class idea: Rimelord[Coders wanted!]

#35 Post by NemesisZeru »

Sradac wrote:hahaha...oh man these names keep throwing me off. I saw the new one and my mind read "Crimelord" :mrgreen:

Maybe instead of giving them a name that describes their elemental affinity, give them a bit of lore and name them based on that.

You could call them like, "Wolves of the North". A group of elite soldiers / mercenary company /secret order / whatever from the cold, bitter north. Like the frost wolves themselves, they have adapted to, and even adopted, the frigid airs of the north.

Then you could name the individual classes based upon specialty. I dont know how many you have in mind but I think I've seen mage and tanky character pop up in here.

Give them wolfy names, or icy names either could maybe work.

tanky character "wolf" name - Alpha, Northern Alpha, Frostwolf, Frostborn, whatever
tanky character "icy" name - Glacier, Squall, Zephyr, Rantha's Claw, whatever
If Rimelords somehow get into the actual game, Crimelord is going to totally be an achievement for Rimelords siding with the Assassin Lord. Because yes.

Perhaps, perhaps. The class name is ultimately sorta...peripheral, so there's plenty of time to work on it. c:

Right now there's only one class, though: A warrior/mage hybrid with minimal armor, but gains tankiness from spells. So I guess you could say they're tanky, just not in the typical plate mail sort of way. x3

While the other classes were neat, it was sorta a bit of an overload. Perhaps something can be done with them after this one, but for now, focusing on just one. :P

Zireael
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Re: Class idea: Rimelord[Coders wanted!]

#36 Post by Zireael »

Yaay for Crimelord cheevo!

NemesisZeru
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Re: Class idea: Rimelord[Coders wanted!]

#37 Post by NemesisZeru »

Zireael wrote:Yaay for Crimelord cheevo!
Crimelord Rhymelord. >:3

Forger101
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Re: Class idea: Rimelord[Coders wanted!]

#38 Post by Forger101 »

I'm still up for the big task of coding this thing if you want. Also just throwing another idea out there, should we make use of the new "wet" debuff in the class. For those who don't know the "wet" debuff lowers stun resist and is currently used to synergize the talents within the archmage cold tree.

+1 for Rimelord Crimelord
<[Relic]> Az lonk as yu hav a hiskool dipooma you be ok wit dat gr8 speakin

The Revanchist
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Re: Class idea: Rimelord[Coders wanted!]

#39 Post by The Revanchist »

Forger101 wrote:Just throwing another idea out there, should we make use of the new "wet" debuff in the class?
It stands to reason that it could increase the damage through the Rimelord's aura. Water conducting the temperature better, or somesuch. However that works. :?

Sradac
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Re: Class idea: Rimelord[Coders wanted!]

#40 Post by Sradac »

If anyone played the Flash game Sunny 2, there was a class called "Hydraulic" built around temperature. Getting things wet, then cold, and using that cold to freeze the water which in turn froze them. It was pretty cool. Hypothermia, Frostbite, lots of cool abilities that were very thematic. You could play it as either a spellcaster focused, or strong hitting melee focused that could "shield" themselves by covering their skin in ice. It was fun.

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Re: Class idea: Rimelord[Coders wanted!]

#41 Post by NemesisZeru »

Forger101 wrote:I'm still up for the big task of coding this thing if you want. Also just throwing another idea out there, should we make use of the new "wet" debuff in the class. For those who don't know the "wet" debuff lowers stun resist and is currently used to synergize the talents within the archmage cold tree.

+1 for Rimelord Crimelord
The Revanchist wrote:
Forger101 wrote:Just throwing another idea out there, should we make use of the new "wet" debuff in the class?
It stands to reason that it could increase the damage through the Rimelord's aura. Water conducting the temperature better, or somesuch. However that works. :?

That'd be much appreciated! I like the idea of it using the wet debuff, just not entirely sure where to fit it in. If you feel up for coding it, though, that'd be really, REALLY awesome. I'd like to think I have a solid base here conceptwise, although some things(damage numbers and the like. Cooldowns are sorta too...standardized currently, but that's relatively easy to fix) need to be worked on.
Sradac wrote:If anyone played the Flash game Sunny 2, there was a class called "Hydraulic" built around temperature. Getting things wet, then cold, and using that cold to freeze the water which in turn froze them. It was pretty cool. Hypothermia, Frostbite, lots of cool abilities that were very thematic. You could play it as either a spellcaster focused, or strong hitting melee focused that could "shield" themselves by covering their skin in ice. It was fun.
That does sound nifty. It's sorta what I was going for with Rimelords, actually. Well, not the water bits, but the whole freezing, thematic abilities and spellcaster/tank melee styles. Sounds like a pretty cool game. Maybe I'll look into it sometime. :o

NemesisZeru
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Re: Class idea: Rimelord[Coders wanted!]

#42 Post by NemesisZeru »

After thinking on it, the skills need more work. In particular, they're too offensively-focused currently, with only one or two defensive skills. Ideally, they'll be more defensively focused(Most of the reason they have stuff like resistance piercing is because, well, they're a cold-damage focused class, and didn't want them to get entirely walled by enemies that happen to have a high cold resist), just gotta figure out ways to add tankiness in more ways then just giving more armour and junk. Any thoughts on that, or the skills I posted recently would be really helpful. This is my first time designing a class, and every little comment helps!


That said, the awesome Forger101 is working on the beginnings of the Temperature mechanic, so hopefully he'll have something to show on that in the near future. :3

astreoth
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Re: Class idea: Rimelord[Coders wanted!]

#43 Post by astreoth »

Blizzard
Strength

Shivering Strike
Cooldown: 2
Generates 5 Temperature
Range: 1
Strike the target with a chilling strike, doing 125% weapon damage as cold.


Winter’s Armor
Passive
Gain (10%-50%) cold resist. In addition, gain (+5-25%) additional armor for each iceblock in radius 4.


Frozen Shell
Sustain
15 Temperature

Gain X(Not sure what would be a good amount here) Armor and +50% cold resist, but fire attacks do (+50%-+25%) more damage to you.

(I can’t believe it took me this long in the writing to figure out how to make sustains work with Temperature. It’s so obvioussss...just add the amount to the temperature meter while it’s active. I’m dumb sometimes, haha)


Shroud of Winter
Sustain
Cooldown: 10
Generates 10 Temperature a turn

Summon a furious blizzard in range 3 around yourself. While the blizzard rages around you, gain +25% evasion, and enemies lose LoS. Enemies in the blizzard take 75% weapon damage as cold each turn, and any enemy who dies in the radius freezes, becoming an iceblock. The blizzard lasts 3 turns after the sustain is deactivated, costing no temperature during this time.

(Might be too complex?)
yeah the fact that this is the defensive tree in what should be a tanky class is a bit worrying I think I can suggest something more fitting though

unbreakable shield 1.3 unlocked

frozen Armour
passive/active
ice Armour builds up on your frozen body gives Armour plus ice counter
at level three it can be used actively to summon an ice shield to block attacks if you don't have a shield
starts with ice and phys blocking
at level four you purify your ice shield to block lightning(pure water doesn't conduct electricity)
at level five you can block fire attacks with the shield(its just that cold)
Armour, counter, and block amount scale with spellpower and talent level

note: make sure the block amount isn't as good as an level appropriate shield so that players have the choice of wielding a two hander with this giving you weaker block ability or for sheild users to have this be an entirely passive boost to shield power with maybe a secondary block in addition to the equipped shields block.

ice adaption
Passive/sustain
instant
you have learned to manually control your body's heat generation in order to handle extreme temperatures Gain (10%-50%) cold resist
if the cold becomes too great you can maximize this for 1-3 temperature decay per turn

note: considering that this class might end up in a brand new meta class it might be a good idea to put this into Frigid Mastery I'll put an extra talent here in case of that okay

bloodfrost
sustain
25 temperature
bloody ice grows from your wounds protecting you
you gain a 6-10 turn damage shield for 10-50% of all damage you take
you gain one to three temperature for every percentage of your life you lose
this talent will only take effect for blows doing more than 16-8% life

advanced ice armory
passive
your mastery of ice manipulation lets you augment your defensive ice giving you increased Armour hardiness and if your frozen Armour shield can block additional elements it lets your Armour block them at a capped hardiness of 33%
at levels 3 - 5 acid, nature, and blight respectively will be added to the list of Armour and shield blockable elements.
also increases bloodfrost and frozen Armour's blocking power by 33% at cap.

extra talent:
bunker down
sustain
50 cooldown
instant release
25 temperature
as the battle effects you, you grit down gain Armour, ice counter, resist all, and if you have advanced ice Armory elemental hardiness for every negative effect on you however you will also lose movement speed for every debuff on you.
benefits scale solely with spell power talent investment only increases the max number of debuffs it will work for and reduces speed drop enough that it stays at 50% max.

this way the tree gives you high defensive power that only gets stronger the more its stressed and helps the class live up to the unbreakable shield bit especially if you put cold adaptation into the generic frigid mastery tree in favor of bunker down.

NemesisZeru
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Re: Class idea: Rimelord[Coders wanted!]

#44 Post by NemesisZeru »

astreoth wrote:
Blizzard
Strength

Shivering Strike
Cooldown: 2
Generates 5 Temperature
Range: 1
Strike the target with a chilling strike, doing 125% weapon damage as cold.


Winter’s Armor
Passive
Gain (10%-50%) cold resist. In addition, gain (+5-25%) additional armor for each iceblock in radius 4.


Frozen Shell
Sustain
15 Temperature

Gain X(Not sure what would be a good amount here) Armor and +50% cold resist, but fire attacks do (+50%-+25%) more damage to you.

(I can’t believe it took me this long in the writing to figure out how to make sustains work with Temperature. It’s so obvioussss...just add the amount to the temperature meter while it’s active. I’m dumb sometimes, haha)


Shroud of Winter
Sustain
Cooldown: 10
Generates 10 Temperature a turn

Summon a furious blizzard in range 3 around yourself. While the blizzard rages around you, gain +25% evasion, and enemies lose LoS. Enemies in the blizzard take 75% weapon damage as cold each turn, and any enemy who dies in the radius freezes, becoming an iceblock. The blizzard lasts 3 turns after the sustain is deactivated, costing no temperature during this time.

(Might be too complex?)
yeah the fact that this is the defensive tree in what should be a tanky class is a bit worrying I think I can suggest something more fitting though

unbreakable shield 1.3 unlocked

frozen Armour
passive/active
ice Armour builds up on your frozen body gives Armour plus ice counter
at level three it can be used actively to summon an ice shield to block attacks if you don't have a shield
starts with ice and phys blocking
at level four you purify your ice shield to block lightning(pure water doesn't conduct electricity)
at level five you can block fire attacks with the shield(its just that cold)
Armour, counter, and block amount scale with spellpower and talent level

note: make sure the block amount isn't as good as an level appropriate shield so that players have the choice of wielding a two hander with this giving you weaker block ability or for sheild users to have this be an entirely passive boost to shield power with maybe a secondary block in addition to the equipped shields block.

ice adaption
Passive/sustain
instant
you have learned to manually control your body's heat generation in order to handle extreme temperatures Gain (10%-50%) cold resist
if the cold becomes too great you can maximize this for 1-3 temperature decay per turn

note: considering that this class might end up in a brand new meta class it might be a good idea to put this into Frigid Mastery I'll put an extra talent here in case of that okay

bloodfrost
sustain
25 temperature
bloody ice grows from your wounds protecting you
you gain a 6-10 turn damage shield for 10-50% of all damage you take
you gain one to three temperature for every percentage of your life you lose
this talent will only take effect for blows doing more than 16-8% life

advanced ice armory
passive
your mastery of ice manipulation lets you augment your defensive ice giving you increased Armour hardiness and if your frozen Armour shield can block additional elements it lets your Armour block them at a capped hardiness of 33%
at levels 3 - 5 acid, nature, and blight respectively will be added to the list of Armour and shield blockable elements.
also increases bloodfrost and frozen Armour's blocking power by 33% at cap.

extra talent:
bunker down
sustain
50 cooldown
instant release
25 temperature
as the battle effects you, you grit down gain Armour, ice counter, resist all, and if you have advanced ice Armory elemental hardiness for every negative effect on you however you will also lose movement speed for every debuff on you.
benefits scale solely with spell power talent investment only increases the max number of debuffs it will work for and reduces speed drop enough that it stays at 50% max.

this way the tree gives you high defensive power that only gets stronger the more its stressed and helps the class live up to the unbreakable shield bit especially if you put cold adaptation into the generic frigid mastery tree in favor of bunker down.
Well, I combined the melee/tank trees, because I didn't have enough ideas for two seperate trees at the time. Unfortunate, but happens sadly. Shivering Strike was supposed to be a supplemental temperature builder, and I'd like to think Shroud of winter is one of those class defining skills. x3

Looking at your suggestions...

Frozen Armour: Looks pretty good, although I'm not sure about it blocking fire attacks. It's thematically supposed to be a big weakness, y'know? The lightning thing is really interesting, though. Never knew that. What do you mean by "ice counter", exactly, though?

Ice Adaptation: Would this be replacing Winter's armor? If not, the numbers on both would have to be tuned down. While cold immunity would fit, it might not exactly be balanced. Could make one slow resistance. Was considering adding that(even if slow doesn't seem that common, seems sorta fitting).

Bloodfrost: I really like the idea of this! I almost feel like there could be sorta a small damaging factor to this(perhaps added in a separate passive) that causes the bloody ice to form spikes, dealing cold damage to the attacker if they're in melee range.

Adv. Ice Armory: Seems interesting, although I'm not entirely sure how the armor hardiness thing works. So, if Frozen Shield can block say...lightning, then it'd let armor take 33%(at cap) of the elemental damage?

Bunker Down: Seems interesting, would just need good numbers tuning to make sure the lost movement speed isn't a death sentence. :P

As for the frigid mastery tree...considering making it the class generic tree, renaming it to something like...Frozen Form, and have it be a defensively focused tree. Iunno yet, though. I've never been entirely sure how to make actual tankiness in ToME, admittedly.

astreoth
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Re: Class idea: Rimelord[Coders wanted!]

#45 Post by astreoth »

okay in response to your questions
Frozen Armour: Looks pretty good, although I'm not sure about it blocking fire attacks. It's thematically supposed to be a big weakness, y'know? The lightning thing is really interesting, though. Never knew that. What do you mean by "ice counter", exactly, though?
okay I'll give the fire thing may not be all that thematically alright it was best thing I could think of at the time could probably replace it with light or something.
and the ice counter is ice elemental retaliation damage that you do to those that attack you frozen scales has it.
Ice Adaptation: Would this be replacing Winter's armor? If not, the numbers on both would have to be tuned down. While cold immunity would fit, it might not exactly be balanced. Could make one slow resistance. Was considering adding that(even if slow doesn't seem that common, seems sorta fitting).
yes it would be replacing it when I made this tree intended for it to be a replacement defensive tree for blizzard taking damage from your own ice is a big part of the classes overall theme didn't intend to mess that up by giving the class the possibility of ice immunity should of made that clearer my bad.
also was considering giving ice adaptation some kind of berserker mode so that you could use this for more than just temperature management but didn't since it might end up generic could throw in status resist if you want.
Bloodfrost: I really like the idea of this! I almost feel like there could be sorta a small damaging factor to this(perhaps added in a separate passive) that causes the bloody ice to form spikes, dealing cold damage to the attacker if they're in melee range.
glad you like it didn't consider something like your damage to the attacker if their in melee range since that would be covered in frozen Armour.
did consider something like that ranged counter attack ability in solipsists discharge tree either as a temp draining passive for when this was off or as an alternate sustain option of this talent since really don't think the countering and defending should work simultaneously.
could just have it do your thing though.
Adv. Ice Armory: Seems interesting, although I'm not entirely sure how the armor hardiness thing works. So, if Frozen Shield can block say...lightning, then it'd let armor take 33%(at cap) of the elemental damage?
yeah if you wanna get an idea of how this works look at stone warden their stone fortress talent lets their resilience of the dwarves racial give them the ability to block elemental damage with their Armour.
just to clarify if the talent can block the incoming damage type it will reduce the damage by a max of 33% at cap but by no more than your max Armour value like Armour works for phys damage.
the talents meant to give you the ability to take more damage of more types and encourage the class to always have some kind of shield by giving you a big benefit for investing in frozen Armour up to the ice shield point.
also just realized this talent combo would reduce self inflicted ice damage not sure how to feel about that.
Bunker Down: Seems interesting, would just need good numbers tuning to make sure the lost movement speed isn't a death sentence. :P
I'll admit this would stop you from just outrunning enemies, but unless your a speed boosting class that's rarely all that good an escape option especially late game, also this talent wouldn't interfere with the much better idea of teleport escapes and a solid movement infusion would more than make up any loss from this, so overall by the time you get this you should have much better escape options than just running.
this talent is more for helping you survive when your debuffed into complete helplessness.
though it might be a good idea to put a bit more status recovery and prevention into it maybe a flat save boost with smaller per debuff save boost, maybe give negative life for each debuff with some healing per effect removal or time out so you don't cure yourself to death. I dunno this is the status handling part of the tree but its more for surviving mass debuffs until your escape option is available.

and as for "frozen form" yeah it should be a metaclass wide generic utility tree with things all cryomancers need like ice resistance, ice + maybe ice block penetration, ice damage boost, maybe ice affinity so you heal a bit with ice damage though that would probably be better as a class specific thing, maybe ice based healing and or status recovery talents just general utility things for a single element based meta class.

and as for tankiness in tome here's a quick rundown of defensive and how to tank methods feel free to mix and match

health based
the method most classes end up using to survive casters. health based survival is all about massive one shot proof hp bars and high recovery.

Armour based
yeah this is common to most melee classes it's good for resisting most melee damage but aside from stone wardens implementation of it it does nothing to block spells so its typically done along side the health based for melee classes

defense based
exclusive to rouge and agility based classes this approach is about avoiding damage in the first place is tested against the opponents accuracy to avoid the attack entirely. typically does nothing to reduce damage you can't avoid but can avoid ranged attacks, don't think it works on spells.
generally not good for tanking typically its given to melee classes with dex instead of strength along with health based defense

resistance based
flat damage reduction of specific elements is implemented by most classes through thick skin but the only class that I could say really specializes in it would be wyrmic.

max damage limit
some races/classes have limits on how much damage they can take in one shot

talent based
catch all term for class specific defensive ability's that aren't just extensions of the above methods with the exception of fungus users pretty much all truly defensive classes use some thing like this typically alongside other methods a few examples are
solipsism + feedback
that generic mage tree about shielding
light generic tree + chants
sunpallys second life ability plus counter shield
Oozemancers Oozes
berserkers/marauders unstoppable
defilers bone shield

and that's all the general methods of protecting yourself in the game aside from Armour and defense based which normally have stat conflicts with each other you will typically try to gather as many of these various methods as you can in order to survive.

also just so its clear pretty much every class has some kind of defensive talents, talent based is just for the ones that are distinctly not based on one of the other methods also this list only deals with direct damage you should also consider status resistance and recovery.

for true tankiness you need to be able to take a lot of damage, block a lot of damage, avoid getting one shot, manage statuses, be able to recover quickly, and prevent damage in the first place.
to varying degrees of course.

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