Preventing over the top skill point juggling

[Doctornull]

If some tree is well suited for lategame and some tree is better suited for early game it does not mean that they should be adjusted to be equally suitable for both. On the contrary, it rewards GRINDING if your build will suffer in the beginning but will be way more powerful later

fix'd

Why the heck would anyone want to reward that?

[supermini]

I've heard this quite a few times over the years but I still don't understand why this is thought of as an actual problem. No one really does it unless they feel like they have to, because it's tedious.

Reshuffling is just a tip of the iceberg, some classes go on using nothing but wands/torques for the first 20 levels because being in melee in that time is the quickest route to the restart screen. If you think you can balance all classes on NM/Insane in such a way that the early game is perfectly viable without relying on crutches, without making them faceroll normal, be my guest, go and do it.

In the meantime don't fix problems that don't exist and create some actual ones.

[Suslik]

oh wow. since my opponent considers "strategic planning" and "grinding" synonyms, i'm out of arguments.

[grayswandir]

I'm with doctornull here. Certainly, you could design the system so it presents interesting choices about balancing between early game and late game - but you could say that about a lot of things, like grinding and hunger and inventory management and etc. And figuring out all of that certainly can be fun. But, if things are more balanced between early and late game, it opens up more character build choices overall, since you won't have to reject talents that only work in the early/late game, and those are a lot of fun too. I'd have fun with either system, but I'd much prefer the second one.

[supermini]

oh wow. since my opponent considers "strategic planning" and "grinding" synonyms, i'm out of arguments.

Acidic spray sucks on NM. It does great damage early on but its usefulness falls off in the later game and I'm going melee anyway. If I'm allowed to shuffle points on wyrmic, I keep it on for the early levels and at the time when I'm actually able to play melee without being splattered in 2 turns, I put points into something else.

You don't want to allow that? I restart the game until I can buy a good mindblast torque and use that instead of acidic spray. You solved the imaginary problem of point shuffling and made the game less fun because I'm not using my class abilities.

Which one do you prefer?

[Doctornull]

oh wow. since my opponent considers "strategic planning" and "grinding" synonyms, i'm out of arguments.

If you didn't understand that restarting over and over for a lucky early game counts as "grinding", then you didn't have an argument in the first place.

"Lucky early game" may include: good torque in the Zigur store, no hard rares in your first few t1 levels, an artifact you can use from your first t1 boss, and more.

I've heard this quite a few times over the years but I still don't understand why this is thought of as an actual problem. No one really does it unless they feel like they have to, because it's tedious.

Agree totally. Even if FULL re-spec'ing were allowed EVERY TURN, I wouldn't use it every turn, because that is not the kind of game I want to play.

However I do want to be able to try stuff out and see how I like it, preferably without re-starting or cheating. IMHO a full re-spec once per dungeon or so seems pretty reasonable, and if I really hate my choices then I can go outside and re-spec to something less awful.

Honestly given how important gear choices are I don't really see re-specs as being that common. Sure, you can drop Mind Sear for Distortion, but then all your +% Mind gear is useless. Want to swap back? Great, now your +% Physical gear is useless. That's extra tedium, so I'm not going to re-spec like that very often.

You don't want to allow that? I restart the game until I can buy a good mindblast torque and use that instead of acidic spray. You solved the imaginary problem of point shuffling and made the game less fun because I'm not using my class abilities.

Which one do you prefer?

Yes, exactly. Preventing re-spec is just encouraging re-start grinding. That's lame and tedious and I don't like it.

I'm with doctornull here. Certainly, you could design the system so it presents interesting choices about balancing between early game and late game - but you could say that about a lot of things, like grinding and hunger and inventory management and etc. And figuring out all of that certainly can be fun. But, if things are more balanced between early and late game, it opens up more character build choices overall, since you won't have to reject talents that only work in the early/late game, and those are a lot of fun too. I'd have fun with either system, but I'd much prefer the second one.

Yeah, I am a fan of choices which are good both early and late. Maybe not all choices are equal, but you should not be punished for experimentation.

Figuring stuff out certainly is part of the fun! Full re-spec is a tool that encourages exactly this kind of experimentation, rather than the current usual, which is to look up a build and follow it mindlessly.

[Suslik]

you call grinding starting game over to try different talents? maybe allow class and race changing as well then? just to not restart over and over to try them all?

[Doctornull]

you call grinding starting game over to try different talents? maybe allow class and race changing as well then? just to not restart over and over to try them all?

Why do you think IN-GAME choices are the same as the choices you make BEFORE you even start playing?

Are you serious, or are you just trying to troll me with a nonsense argument?

[stinkstink]

you call grinding starting game over to try different talents? maybe allow class and race changing as well then? just to not restart over and over to try them all?

This is a pretty bad strawman argument, man.

[Suslik]

Why do you think IN-GAME choices are the same as the choices you make BEFORE you even start playing?

since when planning a build became in-game choice? the game is structured in a way you're going to replay it numerous times(dozens, hundreds) and after like 5th attempt you'ge going to know exactly what build you'll be aiming at before starting it. so you're the one calling build planning in-game choise when it's clearly beforehead on like 95% of your characters. and i see allowing full respec only viable on newbie-friendly exploration-like difficulties. the game is structured in a way you can read skill descriptions before learning them so while "i'll try this skill set respec after that" brings some convenience for super-noobs that are trying class they've just unlocked, it'll add far more dull and exploitable strategies to all others.

Are you serious, or are you just trying to troll me with a nonsense argument?

ditto

have you ever played arcane blade? everyone knows they have a tradeoff: either take flame ray early and get to lvl 10(or 20) easily and get less damage output lategame or try your best and not put more than 4 points into fire tree to invest 100% later into stone tree when you unlock it to get more damage later. if you allow full respec everyone will just go 100% fire in the beginning and then switch to stone tree which will break the challenge completely.

[donkatsu]

Okay, so clearly allowing a limited number of full respecs as a solution is contentious, but just to be clear, nobody thinks the current respec system is fine as it is, right? The whole, "1/5 in an active skill is the same as 5/5, every single turn is 15 seconds of menu navigation if you want to play optimally", thing is absurd, yes? Because when people say things like

In the meantime don't fix problems that don't exist and create some actual ones.

I get a little worried that the world is going insane. You can argue that certain solutions will create their own problems but to suggest that the current system has exactly zero problems is mindboggling. That said I haven't any clever solutions of my own and it doesn't bother me too much, but there clearly IS a problem with the current implementation or else you wouldn't have "heard this quite a few times over the years".

[Suslik]

oh wow. since my opponent considers "strategic planning" and "grinding" synonyms, i'm out of arguments.

Acidic spray sucks on NM. It does great damage early on but its usefulness falls off in the later game and I'm going melee anyway. If I'm allowed to shuffle points on wyrmic, I keep it on for the early levels and at the time when I'm actually able to play melee without being splattered in 2 turns, I put points into something else.

You don't want to allow that? I restart the game until I can buy a good mindblast torque and use that instead of acidic spray. You solved the imaginary problem of point shuffling and made the game less fun because I'm not using my class abilities.

Which one do you prefer?

i prefer making some sense and solving the problem instead of replacing it with another. like removing rares from trollmire or giving melee-only characters starting equips that do not suck as bad as they do now or maybe even increasing their starting hp by 50 or so.


come on, I don't think that my language skills are sufficient to explain why arbitrary respec at any point of a game as strategic as tome is inconcievable. i hope someone else will do.

I have just one question, what's wrong with adding a small cooldown to the skill on putting points into it? 3 turns up to skill actual cooldown should do. those who never abused the strategy would not even notice any changes. those who did will be forced to use more fair and less tedious strategies. it still allows some strategic reallocation of earlygame skills but prohibits its abuse. why is it not a win-win?

[HousePet]

I see this as a problem with higher difficulties, not with the limited respec.
Changing the respec doesn't do anything helpful.

[Doctornull]

since when planning a build became in-game choice?

Ever since your false dichotomy wasn't true.

Not everyone wants to run a spoiler-driven pre-planned build, nor write a spreadsheet to calculate payouts. Some of us would prefer to, you know, play the game, and not have to run cost-benefit analysis on our options in order to play.

have you ever played arcane blade? everyone knows they have a tradeoff: either take flame ray early and get to lvl 10(or 20) easily and get less damage output lategame or try your best and not put more than 4 points into fire tree to invest 100% later into stone tree when you unlock it to get more damage later. if you allow full respec everyone will just go 100% fire in the beginning and then switch to stone tree which will break the challenge completely.

The "challenge" of floating 4 points in Flame or Lightning is an incredibly tedious and shitty "challenge".

If you honestly think that the "challenge" of remembering to click the button 4 times every level, then put your 1 or 2 new points in, then click the button again 4 times, every level, never forget, if you think that's more fun than the alternatives, then I feel we may be playing this game for different reasons.

There is no ~trade-off~. There is only knowledge of how to exploit the limited re-spec system, and tedium.

(Also, if you feel that Stone is too strong, then petition to get the class changed. Or just suggest a replacement tree.)

[supermini]

I get a little worried that the world is going insane. You can argue that certain solutions will create their own problems but to suggest that the current system has exactly zero problems is mindboggling. That said I haven't any clever solutions of my own and it doesn't bother me too much, but there clearly IS a problem with the current implementation or else you wouldn't have "heard this quite a few times over the years".

The problem isn't with the respec system, it's with needing crutches for certain classes on higher difficulties. This is just one of them. I stop doing this as soon as I get a character running because it's tedious and boring.

If you think this is too tedious, simply don't do it. That's why this is not a problem.