Comprehensive Mindslayer rework
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Re: Comprehensive Mindslayer rework
I see, I was just using the most recent download but I guess that wasn't very recent. I'll have to check out the git then, thanks.
My wiki page, which contains a guide and resource compilation and class tier list.
Re: Comprehensive Mindslayer rework
Emailed what I think is a patch to DarkGod.
Contents:
Makes Absorption Shields block all 4 elements at level 1, but reduces a smaller percentage at level 1.
Forcefield doesn't drain Psi based on damage blocked, but it does cost more to maintain each turn.
New category - Augmented Striking. Had a play with it, and its fun.
Mindlash is now a beam that also inflicts a global slow for 2 turns. Reduced cooldown and damage. It did do a stun when transcendent, but it was missing from the description.
Added range/radius scaling to lots of things.

Contents:
Makes Absorption Shields block all 4 elements at level 1, but reduces a smaller percentage at level 1.
Forcefield doesn't drain Psi based on damage blocked, but it does cost more to maintain each turn.
New category - Augmented Striking. Had a play with it, and its fun.
Mindlash is now a beam that also inflicts a global slow for 2 turns. Reduced cooldown and damage. It did do a stun when transcendent, but it was missing from the description.
Added range/radius scaling to lots of things.
My feedback meter decays into coding. Give me feedback and I make mods.
Re: Comprehensive Mindslayer rework
HousePet wrote:Emailed what I think is a patch to DarkGod.![]()
Contents:
Makes Absorption Shields block all 4 elements at level 1, but reduces a smaller percentage at level 1.
Forcefield doesn't drain Psi based on damage blocked, but it does cost more to maintain each turn.
New category - Augmented Striking. Had a play with it, and its fun.
Mindlash is now a beam that also inflicts a global slow for 2 turns. Reduced cooldown and damage. It did do a stun when transcendent, but it was missing from the description.
Added range/radius scaling to lots of things.

Re: Comprehensive Mindslayer rework
Sounds awesome!
Re: Comprehensive Mindslayer rework
There is one other problem to resolve.
Since DarkGod has made psi wielding a conventional weapon convert all your weapon attack to use willpower and cunning, it also means that Auras will automatically grant their damage bonus to all weapons.
This makes the Transcendent bonus for that Aura buff redundant.
Also there is some concern that the Transcendent buff to shields encourages not level shields (wait, is that actually a problem since you can save talent points that way?)
And I'm out of ideas.
Since DarkGod has made psi wielding a conventional weapon convert all your weapon attack to use willpower and cunning, it also means that Auras will automatically grant their damage bonus to all weapons.
This makes the Transcendent bonus for that Aura buff redundant.
Also there is some concern that the Transcendent buff to shields encourages not level shields (wait, is that actually a problem since you can save talent points that way?)
And I'm out of ideas.

My feedback meter decays into coding. Give me feedback and I make mods.
Re: Comprehensive Mindslayer rework
Don't see any of those as a problem, lol. They only problem I see now is balancing a lot of abilities that can get potentially extremely powerful. Both for PC and NPC's on all difficulties on every stage of the game.HousePet wrote:There is one other problem to resolve.
Since DarkGod has made psi wielding a conventional weapon convert all your weapon attack to use willpower and cunning, it also means that Auras will automatically grant their damage bonus to all weapons.
This makes the Transcendent bonus for that Aura buff redundant.
Also there is some concern that the Transcendent buff to shields encourages not level shields (wait, is that actually a problem since you can save talent points that way?)
And I'm out of ideas.
Re: Comprehensive Mindslayer rework
Yeah, but that is normal.Suslik wrote:Don't see any of those as a problem, lol. They only problem I see now is balancing a lot of abilities that can get potentially extremely powerful. Both for PC and NPC's on all difficulties on every stage of the game.

As a bonus, we now have psi_regen_on_hit

My feedback meter decays into coding. Give me feedback and I make mods.
Re: Comprehensive Mindslayer rework
Tested the new mindslayers(b12) after hotfix.
Ladies and gentlemen, that's become just outrageously, ridiculously fun class for me, though needs some balancing.
I've played to character to lvl20, expressions on every tree so far.
Absorption:
When you fight some 1on1 boss the protection from spiking shields is less than desired probably because max absorb amount does not scale with skill level at all. Like if you normally absorb about 30dmg, with transcend you absorb 60 and if you take dmg every turn for 6 turns you're going to have 360pts damage shields which's a little underwhelming for such lucky situation(you havent spiked the shield earlier and have not died). I propose spiked shields to absorb 2.5x(damage received last 3 turns) and/or add max damage scaling with talent level. First proposal is gonna make spiking a little more practical because in reality you rarely can survive 6 turns without spiking, second is going to encourage lvlling shields past lvl3(currently only absorb% scales which's underwhelming if you can transcend this shield up to 100%).
Forcefield turned out to be surprisingly interesting and tactical ability. Its psi consumption in practice is way worse than it looks - it'll drain your psi REALLY fast since you're going to cast something else as well and after like 2-3 turns leeches restore less psi than you spend on forcefield. Though damage reduction during these rounds helps a ton to restore some cooldowns and apply a regen infusion. Changing psi consumption to 0% during the first turn is an interesting idea, because 2-3 turns is really short.
There's also some bug with spiked shield having different color from regular and transcended.
Projection:
Auras are fine. Looks like frenzied focus is kinda useless on conventional weapons because you're unlikely to spend a turn and 30 psi on casting it when there are far better AoE abilities. Maybe let it attack all targets around you or attack a single target twice per turn.
Psi-fighting:
Smash is used a lot, augmentation is fine. Warding weapon cost should probably be reduced to ~10 or be reduced with talent level because currently there's no point in levelling the talent past 1/5. I never had enough psi to cast this ability. Not sure about impale since there are more useful offensive abilites.
Focus:
Mindlash is fine. Pyrokinesis has surprisingly cool graphics(wonder who's that sexy dude who created that shader? : D) , but flameshock maybe a little OP. Also insane amount of damage + very high psi cost are gonna make this talent more dangerous when cast by NPC since they don't care about psi anyway. Branstorm's cross tier is very useful, Iron will needs no adjustments.
Augmented striking:
11psi per attack is really, really a lot. I think these attacks should be allowed for rotation with way decreased psi cost and damage. Maybe even make them 0cd(of course damage should be changed accordingly) because I've really seen no opportunity to use a 8cd ability when I have telekinetic smash already that's anyway used for stunning only. There's also a bug that causes telekinetic smash(probably other abilities as well) to take 2 turns instead of 1 which proved to be very dangerous.
Voracity:
Awesome. DG's addition(way higher base value, -20% effeciency agains consequent targets) works just great and rewarding for casting leeches in crowds but satisfying enough to cast against a boss when you're at 0 psi as well. Maybe can get even higher psi regen on single target and larger -% for every consequent. Had no need for Insatiable.
Kinetic mastery:
Transcendant spiking is cool even though it's kinda expensive. Though it restores kinetic leech cooldown so it's fine(i've figured that too late). Telekinetic throw's cost is so high I never used outside of testing purposes. I think it'd be cool to make it more utility: reduce damage and psi cost a lot, allow grabbing target from greater distance and throw it anywhere in 3~5 radius. Deflection with spiking is outstanding, implode is cool enough(havent tested but it was before).
Havent tried other masteries yet =(
Augmented ability:
Skate needs spiking and speed reduction nerf since 50% passively is a lot. I think best way to spike it is like moving infusion(~500% movespeed bonus, breaks on any other action, care with how auras work with it though) because telekinetic leap is the only usable moving option since shattering charge need a shitton of psi AND 500% movespeed would stack awesome with static net. Quick as thoght takes too much psi for my build to ever use. Also all augmented striking talents are mind powers and quick as thought increases attack speed so the only way of benefitting from it is bump attacking. Suggest changing it either to mind speed(but that's gonna benefit casters too much) or global speed with reduced value(prolly better). Also 30 psi is really a lot, not sure about it. Leap is fine, havent tried shattering charge : it takes more psi than I usually had so had no reason to ever try it.
Finer energy manipulation:
Realign is really a pain on rares when you're on nightmare trollmire 1 but when you're a player it restores more health than you have for insane amount of psi. Suggest reducing healed(by 30%-50%) amount and psi cost(30-50% as well). Reshape weapon/armor should work on items currently equipped(without need to take them off), maybe make it affect everything equipped automatically. Currently I was too lazy to cast it on everything. Matter is energy looks fine but I usually had leeches left so never forced to use it. Well, I tested and it works, but it'll most likely be useful in very long fights. Resonant focus looks fine, but I really did not get that "mindstar pulls enemies" feature.
Bottom line: some abilites suffer from having too much effect with too much psi cost. It's probably best to reduce effects of realign, warding weapon, pyrokinesis, telekinetic throw and quick as though as well as their cost. Some abilites turned out to be really underwhelming in comparison to others: frenzied focus, impale, all strikes and shattering charge(maybe I just used them wrong), insatiable and resonant focus. Some abilities need better scaling with talent level: all shields, warding weapon.
That's all from me. Overall the class is already very playable, and feels more balanced than some other classes that are have been here for some time already(brawler, oozemancer).
Ladies and gentlemen, that's become just outrageously, ridiculously fun class for me, though needs some balancing.
I've played to character to lvl20, expressions on every tree so far.
Absorption:
When you fight some 1on1 boss the protection from spiking shields is less than desired probably because max absorb amount does not scale with skill level at all. Like if you normally absorb about 30dmg, with transcend you absorb 60 and if you take dmg every turn for 6 turns you're going to have 360pts damage shields which's a little underwhelming for such lucky situation(you havent spiked the shield earlier and have not died). I propose spiked shields to absorb 2.5x(damage received last 3 turns) and/or add max damage scaling with talent level. First proposal is gonna make spiking a little more practical because in reality you rarely can survive 6 turns without spiking, second is going to encourage lvlling shields past lvl3(currently only absorb% scales which's underwhelming if you can transcend this shield up to 100%).
Forcefield turned out to be surprisingly interesting and tactical ability. Its psi consumption in practice is way worse than it looks - it'll drain your psi REALLY fast since you're going to cast something else as well and after like 2-3 turns leeches restore less psi than you spend on forcefield. Though damage reduction during these rounds helps a ton to restore some cooldowns and apply a regen infusion. Changing psi consumption to 0% during the first turn is an interesting idea, because 2-3 turns is really short.
There's also some bug with spiked shield having different color from regular and transcended.
Projection:
Auras are fine. Looks like frenzied focus is kinda useless on conventional weapons because you're unlikely to spend a turn and 30 psi on casting it when there are far better AoE abilities. Maybe let it attack all targets around you or attack a single target twice per turn.
Psi-fighting:
Smash is used a lot, augmentation is fine. Warding weapon cost should probably be reduced to ~10 or be reduced with talent level because currently there's no point in levelling the talent past 1/5. I never had enough psi to cast this ability. Not sure about impale since there are more useful offensive abilites.
Focus:
Mindlash is fine. Pyrokinesis has surprisingly cool graphics(wonder who's that sexy dude who created that shader? : D) , but flameshock maybe a little OP. Also insane amount of damage + very high psi cost are gonna make this talent more dangerous when cast by NPC since they don't care about psi anyway. Branstorm's cross tier is very useful, Iron will needs no adjustments.
Augmented striking:
11psi per attack is really, really a lot. I think these attacks should be allowed for rotation with way decreased psi cost and damage. Maybe even make them 0cd(of course damage should be changed accordingly) because I've really seen no opportunity to use a 8cd ability when I have telekinetic smash already that's anyway used for stunning only. There's also a bug that causes telekinetic smash(probably other abilities as well) to take 2 turns instead of 1 which proved to be very dangerous.
Voracity:
Awesome. DG's addition(way higher base value, -20% effeciency agains consequent targets) works just great and rewarding for casting leeches in crowds but satisfying enough to cast against a boss when you're at 0 psi as well. Maybe can get even higher psi regen on single target and larger -% for every consequent. Had no need for Insatiable.
Kinetic mastery:
Transcendant spiking is cool even though it's kinda expensive. Though it restores kinetic leech cooldown so it's fine(i've figured that too late). Telekinetic throw's cost is so high I never used outside of testing purposes. I think it'd be cool to make it more utility: reduce damage and psi cost a lot, allow grabbing target from greater distance and throw it anywhere in 3~5 radius. Deflection with spiking is outstanding, implode is cool enough(havent tested but it was before).
Havent tried other masteries yet =(
Augmented ability:
Skate needs spiking and speed reduction nerf since 50% passively is a lot. I think best way to spike it is like moving infusion(~500% movespeed bonus, breaks on any other action, care with how auras work with it though) because telekinetic leap is the only usable moving option since shattering charge need a shitton of psi AND 500% movespeed would stack awesome with static net. Quick as thoght takes too much psi for my build to ever use. Also all augmented striking talents are mind powers and quick as thought increases attack speed so the only way of benefitting from it is bump attacking. Suggest changing it either to mind speed(but that's gonna benefit casters too much) or global speed with reduced value(prolly better). Also 30 psi is really a lot, not sure about it. Leap is fine, havent tried shattering charge : it takes more psi than I usually had so had no reason to ever try it.
Finer energy manipulation:
Realign is really a pain on rares when you're on nightmare trollmire 1 but when you're a player it restores more health than you have for insane amount of psi. Suggest reducing healed(by 30%-50%) amount and psi cost(30-50% as well). Reshape weapon/armor should work on items currently equipped(without need to take them off), maybe make it affect everything equipped automatically. Currently I was too lazy to cast it on everything. Matter is energy looks fine but I usually had leeches left so never forced to use it. Well, I tested and it works, but it'll most likely be useful in very long fights. Resonant focus looks fine, but I really did not get that "mindstar pulls enemies" feature.
Bottom line: some abilites suffer from having too much effect with too much psi cost. It's probably best to reduce effects of realign, warding weapon, pyrokinesis, telekinetic throw and quick as though as well as their cost. Some abilites turned out to be really underwhelming in comparison to others: frenzied focus, impale, all strikes and shattering charge(maybe I just used them wrong), insatiable and resonant focus. Some abilities need better scaling with talent level: all shields, warding weapon.
That's all from me. Overall the class is already very playable, and feels more balanced than some other classes that are have been here for some time already(brawler, oozemancer).
Last edited by Suslik on Mon May 26, 2014 1:05 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Re: Comprehensive Mindslayer rework
I disagree about defense being fine. Currently Forcefield goes through 100% of your psi in just four turns (if you start at full psi, which, this being an emergency talent, you won't). You can extend the duration a little by using psi regen talents, but most of those also take a turn. Moreover, the talent penalizes increasing your maximum psi via, say, Insatiable or items. That's a lot of downsides for a talent that doesn't reduce damage by much more than Mitosis or Reflexive Dodge, and that reduces spike damage by a lot less than, say, Sacrifice.
I would reduce the drain per turn a bit, and also provide a cap, e.g.: 8%/turn (instead of 10%) or 17 psi, whichever is less. (AI should disregard the "whichever is less," since, unlike players, they are unlikely to be limited to a max of about 200 free psi in the late game.)
I would reduce the drain per turn a bit, and also provide a cap, e.g.: 8%/turn (instead of 10%) or 17 psi, whichever is less. (AI should disregard the "whichever is less," since, unlike players, they are unlikely to be limited to a max of about 200 free psi in the late game.)
Re: Comprehensive Mindslayer rework
I don't think that being unable to maintain forcefield for long is a bad thing. Even though 10%/turn/turn may be a little harsh, it's an ability that's not supposed to be up for long, it's for survival of spike damages only and it works better than reducing damage by flat amount for spikes.
With mitosis being the most OP defense and reflexing dodge being the only mean of survival for rogues(btw it's weaker) I don't really see why instant-casting forcefield should be as powerful as those. Sacrifice is an ability that takes 3 turns to cast: you cast minions, then merge them to the giant then sactifice it. Forcefield is instant. AND you're gonna have shields up when you turn forcefield on greatly increasing its effectiveness.
With mitosis being the most OP defense and reflexing dodge being the only mean of survival for rogues(btw it's weaker) I don't really see why instant-casting forcefield should be as powerful as those. Sacrifice is an ability that takes 3 turns to cast: you cast minions, then merge them to the giant then sactifice it. Forcefield is instant. AND you're gonna have shields up when you turn forcefield on greatly increasing its effectiveness.
Re: Comprehensive Mindslayer rework
Uh, okay, let's go through those comparisons one at a time.
Mitosis: Had to be repeatedly nerfed, currently hard to compare protective value because of its mechanics.
Reflex Defense: Going to assume this is what you meant by Reflexive Dodge, though I may be mistaken. Reflex Defense at endgame stats is like 35% damage reduction, which is nowhere near Forcefield's 68%.
Sacrifice: Is in a locked tree and requires you to use two other talents before it. Not at all comparable.
Forcefield HAS to be something you can only put up for a couple of turns at a time or else it's just ridiculous. No cap. I agree that the cost shouldn't be percentage-based, though. Maybe make it an exponentially growing constant.
Also a couple of other notes:
Off-balance was changed to -damage instead of -speed, but the tooltip for Mindlash claims that it inflicts -speed.
Remove the stam drain from Kinetic Leech. Unlike other resources, stamina regen is extremely limited. There is no staminasurge rune. A single use of Kinetic Leech by a rare/unique will completely neuter certain classes and force them to use bump attacks for the rest of the "fight".
Mitosis: Had to be repeatedly nerfed, currently hard to compare protective value because of its mechanics.
Reflex Defense: Going to assume this is what you meant by Reflexive Dodge, though I may be mistaken. Reflex Defense at endgame stats is like 35% damage reduction, which is nowhere near Forcefield's 68%.
Sacrifice: Is in a locked tree and requires you to use two other talents before it. Not at all comparable.
Forcefield HAS to be something you can only put up for a couple of turns at a time or else it's just ridiculous. No cap. I agree that the cost shouldn't be percentage-based, though. Maybe make it an exponentially growing constant.
Also a couple of other notes:
Off-balance was changed to -damage instead of -speed, but the tooltip for Mindlash claims that it inflicts -speed.
Remove the stam drain from Kinetic Leech. Unlike other resources, stamina regen is extremely limited. There is no staminasurge rune. A single use of Kinetic Leech by a rare/unique will completely neuter certain classes and force them to use bump attacks for the rest of the "fight".
Re: Comprehensive Mindslayer rework
Oh, I forgot to test Mindlash. I was testing the Strikes.
DarkGod has increased the Aura cooldowns to 10.
Could increase the boost from Frenzied Focus with a conventional weapon. There are better attacks, but they aren't as cool as a flying axe chopping enemies wildly.
NB: Psi Tap will trigger off any weapon hit. You can have three equipped at once...
Stamina regen isn't that limited, it is just generally ignored as nothing can eat your stamina.
The Stamina drain probably should be halved though.
Spike Skate for a Movement Infusion? Does this class really need more mobility or free inscription abilities?
Realign heal might be a bit too high, if you compare it to Nature's Touch it only does 10% less but also cures debuffs.
How about giving the first turn of Forcefield as cost free? So it will cost 0%, 10%, 20%, 30%, 40%...
Also, the class does have a wider range of defensive talents now. You have Shields, which can be amplified in two different ways, Forcefield, Warding Weapon and then there are all those disabling effects...

DarkGod has increased the Aura cooldowns to 10.
Could increase the boost from Frenzied Focus with a conventional weapon. There are better attacks, but they aren't as cool as a flying axe chopping enemies wildly.
NB: Psi Tap will trigger off any weapon hit. You can have three equipped at once...
Stamina regen isn't that limited, it is just generally ignored as nothing can eat your stamina.
The Stamina drain probably should be halved though.
Spike Skate for a Movement Infusion? Does this class really need more mobility or free inscription abilities?
Realign heal might be a bit too high, if you compare it to Nature's Touch it only does 10% less but also cures debuffs.
How about giving the first turn of Forcefield as cost free? So it will cost 0%, 10%, 20%, 30%, 40%...
Also, the class does have a wider range of defensive talents now. You have Shields, which can be amplified in two different ways, Forcefield, Warding Weapon and then there are all those disabling effects...
My feedback meter decays into coding. Give me feedback and I make mods.
Re: Comprehensive Mindslayer rework
Certain classes can easily get back all their stamina, like say Berserkers and Archers. But what's a Rogue going to do? Wait around for that 0.3 stamina per turn? Nothing is being "ignored", they just don't have anything to replenish their stamina. Once it's gone, it's gone.
The problem with lowering the stam drain instead of getting rid of it is then it's useless for player characters. By its nature, stam drain doesn't actually accomplish anything useful until it does, and then when it does, it completely shuts certain classes down. This is what I would call "fundamentally flawed"; there just isn't a number that can make this viable but not overpowering for both players and NPCs.
The problem with lowering the stam drain instead of getting rid of it is then it's useless for player characters. By its nature, stam drain doesn't actually accomplish anything useful until it does, and then when it does, it completely shuts certain classes down. This is what I would call "fundamentally flawed"; there just isn't a number that can make this viable but not overpowering for both players and NPCs.
Re: Comprehensive Mindslayer rework
HP, agree with your suggestions. played more, now I'm familiar enough with the class and will edit my previous report for more precise information.
rewritten most of my feedback in a more precise way: http://forums.te4.org/viewtopic.php?f=3 ... 43#p179543
rewritten most of my feedback in a more precise way: http://forums.te4.org/viewtopic.php?f=3 ... 43#p179543
Re: Comprehensive Mindslayer rework
Maybe make Kinetic Leech drain a % of max psi?