I've been given the go-ahead by DarkGod to get some help coding the Skirmisher, a new Rogue type class. Of course, nothing is ever guaranteed, but having another class that can make use of Slings can only be good for the game. I've already acquired a team of 3 volunteers, which is probably overkill for just one class that only has 4 new categories, but hey, I'm not complaining!
The class will be released via GitHub as an addon initially, so that anyone who wants to help test the class can do so without messing up their base game. I will bump this thread every time there is a new release version. If you are testing, don't forget enabling Developer Mode can be handy, then giving yourself level 50 in order to try out all the skills and ensure they are doing what the tooltip says they're supposed to do.
The trickiest part of this entire endeavor is likely Buckler Training since it is making use of Shields in a way no class previously has. The most universally beneficial part of Skirmisher is Acrobatics, which will hopefully be offered to every Rogue metaclass as a locked Generic category (free for Skirmishers). We'll see how that goes!
Design Document:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hkk ... mdESQ/edit#
Git Repo:
https://github.com/sstrickl/tome-skirmisher
The class is nearly complete and more than ready for testing. There are a few changes to how some of the talents behave that need to be put in, and I want to add the Heavy Slinger category still (you can read about it in the Design Doc), but the class is functional and early reports are that it is a lot of fun!
Skirmisher Master Thread (New Class, NOW PLAYABLE)
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Skirmisher Master Thread (New Class, NOW PLAYABLE)
Last edited by Fortescue on Fri Mar 21, 2014 7:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Skirmisher Master Thread (New Class for 1.2 if we're luc
I haven't quite figured out how to code for this game yet, but if you need a playtester (specifically for Nightmare/Insane) I'd be happy to help. Do you have a general outline of what categories this class will have and which ones will start locked?
My wiki page, which contains a guide and resource compilation and class tier list.
Re: Skirmisher Master Thread (New Class for 1.2 if we're luc
Yeah, read the design doc. It specifies which things are Class vs. General and which are Locked by default. I might need to design at least 1 more category for it though before the class is completed.
Re: Skirmisher Master Thread (New Class for 1.2 if we're luc
Ah sorry didn't read that earlier, overall it looks pretty well rounded but it definitely needs more categories.
Three unlocked class categories isn't really enough in my opinion. I'm not sure what you ideas you had for a possible new category, but anyway I feel like some more options from existing categories could help. I recommend adding the Archery Prowess category unlocked so this class would have more than just the five ranged attack talents available. Maybe add Combat Techniques locked as well, so players would have access to a good global speed buff without having to be Shalore (as it is there's no way I'm playing this class with a race that isn't Shalore since global speed is too good to not have). Dirty Fighting should probably be available locked too since this is a type of Rogue and even without a weapon the first three talents help a lot. Also Combat Veteran should be added locked as it is either unlocked or locked on every Warrior or Rogue class.
One of my main issues with Archer is how bad its generic options were, since you only got Combat Training, Survival, and Field Control. Acrobatics adds a lot more variety to the class, but I'd probably have Field Control unlocked so this class doesn't run out of places to put generic points like Archer does. If Lacerating Strikes applies to ranged attacks, Scoundrel could be added as well, possibly locked, since it helps with the dodging rather than blocking style that this class seems to be going for.
Three unlocked class categories isn't really enough in my opinion. I'm not sure what you ideas you had for a possible new category, but anyway I feel like some more options from existing categories could help. I recommend adding the Archery Prowess category unlocked so this class would have more than just the five ranged attack talents available. Maybe add Combat Techniques locked as well, so players would have access to a good global speed buff without having to be Shalore (as it is there's no way I'm playing this class with a race that isn't Shalore since global speed is too good to not have). Dirty Fighting should probably be available locked too since this is a type of Rogue and even without a weapon the first three talents help a lot. Also Combat Veteran should be added locked as it is either unlocked or locked on every Warrior or Rogue class.
One of my main issues with Archer is how bad its generic options were, since you only got Combat Training, Survival, and Field Control. Acrobatics adds a lot more variety to the class, but I'd probably have Field Control unlocked so this class doesn't run out of places to put generic points like Archer does. If Lacerating Strikes applies to ranged attacks, Scoundrel could be added as well, possibly locked, since it helps with the dodging rather than blocking style that this class seems to be going for.
My wiki page, which contains a guide and resource compilation and class tier list.
Re: Skirmisher Master Thread (New Class for 1.2 if we're luc
Good suggestions. I was thinking as a stop-gap measure I would put Combat Veteran and Archery Prowess in before you said that, then when I have time / my team has time we could continue to iterate on this class until it is where I'd like it to be.
Re: Skirmisher Master Thread (New Class for 1.2 if we're luc
any particular reason you are putting this on git and not te4.org and / or steam? The beauty of addons is they wont "mess up" the base game.
Re: Skirmisher Master Thread (New Class for 1.2 if we're luc
Because it is still in early development and not ready to be played yet. When a playable version is finished we can throw it up as an addon on Steam and / or te4.org. There are 4 people doing code work and git helps organize projects like this across multiple people.Sradac wrote:any particular reason you are putting this on git and not te4.org and / or steam? The beauty of addons is they wont "mess up" the base game.
Re: Skirmisher Master Thread (New Class for 1.2 if we're luc
Hey just wanted to bump this because the class is now playable (only needs 1 more category implemented). Let me know what you think! Specifically I am interested in how stamina balance is working out when you have Sling Bombardment, Counter Shot, and Trained Reflexes all running at once.
Any other feedback is welcome as well, of course.
Oh and, if anyone wants to submit a patch to fix the outstanding issues at the bottom of the design doc it would be appreciated!!
Any other feedback is welcome as well, of course.
Oh and, if anyone wants to submit a patch to fix the outstanding issues at the bottom of the design doc it would be appreciated!!
Re: Skirmisher Master Thread (New Class, NOW PLAYABLE)
I'll give it a shot on Nightmare later today if I can find the time. I've played both Bulwark and Archer on that difficulty so I'll let you know how it fares in comparison. Is there anything specific besides stamina management you'd like testing on?
My wiki page, which contains a guide and resource compilation and class tier list.
Re: Skirmisher Master Thread (New Class, NOW PLAYABLE)
Awesome. Looking forward to hearing back from you.
Re: Skirmisher Master Thread (New Class, NOW PLAYABLE)
I cleared all the t1 zones on Nightmare and I'm currently level 14. So far, this class plays very similar to Archer but it's way better. I killed the Spellblaze Crystal in about 1.5 turns and the Rhaloren Inquisitor in about four turns. Here are my thoughts on all the new categories except Tireless Combat (I killed stuff too quickly to run out of stamina so I never needed this past the first t1).
Skirmisher Combat: The ammo gain on movement is way too good. I didn't run out of ammo after hitting about level 6 since a single step recovers so much ammo. I'd change this to one ammo per step at all levels to make it more reasonable. Swift Shot is way too strong for an attack that only takes half as long to use. I'd reduce the power of the shot by about 45% weapon damage at all levels. Hurricane Shot is bugged, it can hit twice regardless of whether or not you have it at level 3. I didn't try Bombardment yet but it seems pretty strong, probably too strong.
Called Shots: All three attack talents hit really hard at 1/5 but do barely more damage at 5/5. All three attack talents in this tree hit very hard at 1/5 and I'd shred enemies with just 1/1/1/5 in the tree.. Instead, I'd reduce their damage at 1/5 by a lot while keeping their 5/5 damage the same for the first two talents. Noggin Knocker just needs to be nerfed a lot since your strongest attack talent shouldn't also be a stun.
Buckler Training: Buckler Expertise is pretty solid, but I'd also make it so you get counterattacks for deflecting attacks since it's annoying that enemies can just miss when using Block messing up your counterattack. Also I would make it passively let you get counterattacks off incomplete blocks like Riposte does. Bash and Smash is weird, its shield attack does no damage but its sling attack is really powerful. I'd make the shield strike scale with Dexterity instead of Strength and I'd make the sling attack weaker to counteract the shield boost. Buckler Mastery is too good, reduce it to 10-30% from 10-50%. It's like Deflect Projectiles on steroids and also free. Counter Shot will be fine if Buckler Mastery is nerfed.
Acrobatics: Vault is annoying to use, I'd make it just require an adjacent enemy and let you move in any direction. Cunning Roll is good only because it's instant, but that's probably the point. Trained Reactions is way too strong, it should require you to take 20% of your life at all levels but the reduction should be more like 20-40% down from 52-70%. Superb Agility looks okay but I'd remove the global speed since it makes Trained Reactions even more powerful than it already is. If you don't want to remove the global speed I'd have it trigger upon using Cunning Roll instead.
You should probably remove Traps and Poisons to make this class less like Archer and give it at least one new locked tree. I also recommend unlocking Field Control since locking the tree with Track just makes you more dependent on escorts and good drops.
Skirmisher Combat: The ammo gain on movement is way too good. I didn't run out of ammo after hitting about level 6 since a single step recovers so much ammo. I'd change this to one ammo per step at all levels to make it more reasonable. Swift Shot is way too strong for an attack that only takes half as long to use. I'd reduce the power of the shot by about 45% weapon damage at all levels. Hurricane Shot is bugged, it can hit twice regardless of whether or not you have it at level 3. I didn't try Bombardment yet but it seems pretty strong, probably too strong.
Called Shots: All three attack talents hit really hard at 1/5 but do barely more damage at 5/5. All three attack talents in this tree hit very hard at 1/5 and I'd shred enemies with just 1/1/1/5 in the tree.. Instead, I'd reduce their damage at 1/5 by a lot while keeping their 5/5 damage the same for the first two talents. Noggin Knocker just needs to be nerfed a lot since your strongest attack talent shouldn't also be a stun.
Buckler Training: Buckler Expertise is pretty solid, but I'd also make it so you get counterattacks for deflecting attacks since it's annoying that enemies can just miss when using Block messing up your counterattack. Also I would make it passively let you get counterattacks off incomplete blocks like Riposte does. Bash and Smash is weird, its shield attack does no damage but its sling attack is really powerful. I'd make the shield strike scale with Dexterity instead of Strength and I'd make the sling attack weaker to counteract the shield boost. Buckler Mastery is too good, reduce it to 10-30% from 10-50%. It's like Deflect Projectiles on steroids and also free. Counter Shot will be fine if Buckler Mastery is nerfed.
Acrobatics: Vault is annoying to use, I'd make it just require an adjacent enemy and let you move in any direction. Cunning Roll is good only because it's instant, but that's probably the point. Trained Reactions is way too strong, it should require you to take 20% of your life at all levels but the reduction should be more like 20-40% down from 52-70%. Superb Agility looks okay but I'd remove the global speed since it makes Trained Reactions even more powerful than it already is. If you don't want to remove the global speed I'd have it trigger upon using Cunning Roll instead.
You should probably remove Traps and Poisons to make this class less like Archer and give it at least one new locked tree. I also recommend unlocking Field Control since locking the tree with Track just makes you more dependent on escorts and good drops.
My wiki page, which contains a guide and resource compilation and class tier list.
Re: Skirmisher Master Thread (New Class, NOW PLAYABLE)
Good feedback! There are a few changes in the works that didn't make it into your version yet. I normalized the Called Shots to all max out at 200% dmg, and cost more Stamina. Stamina costs in general are going up. Some of the descriptions are out of date. The Buckler feedback and Trained Reflexes as well are real good, I figured those would need numbers tweaked at some point.
As far as removing Traps and Poisons, no, Archer should remove those so it is less like a Rogue. I'm going to revamp Archer soon and it will lose those if DG agrees with my remakes.
As far as removing Traps and Poisons, no, Archer should remove those so it is less like a Rogue. I'm going to revamp Archer soon and it will lose those if DG agrees with my remakes.
Re: Skirmisher Master Thread (New Class, NOW PLAYABLE)
It seems like this class's talents are going to end up really strong with high stamina costs, but if stamina costs are the only downside, people will just pick up Hidden Resources and abuse them as much as they want. As Shalore, you can get 15 turns of Hidden Resources if you use Timeless to boost it, so I recommend you be careful about making talents have high power and high cost.
My wiki page, which contains a guide and resource compilation and class tier list.
Re: Skirmisher Master Thread (New Class, NOW PLAYABLE)
Loading this up, a few picky pedant notes:
1) Two "You must weild a sling!" messages pop up in the dialogue box as the character loads. Not sure this is necessary/it's "wield".
2) Sling Supremacy: Whenevry->Whenever.
3) There's a missing period at the end of the final Acrobatics skill.
A final pedant note: I'd standardize your stuff just a bit better with DG's and switch "rank" to "talent points" or "effective talent level"; while it's pretty obvious what you're talking about as a native English speaker, it might cause some translation confusion for our other communities.
This all having been said? Holy hell this class looks awesome. Thanks for submitting this! I'll try playing through with this and see what feedback I have to offer as I go through, but thus far I like the reload change/the skills look really solid!
EDIT: Mentioned in chat that some egos may need to be made archer only/some added sling-only egos would need to replace them perhaps. A quick list:
Steady: Bow only. For slings, replace with "Rapid" and have it reduce the cooldown of Swift Shot by 1? (Alternately, change the ego name to Rapid and have it reduce the cooldown of both Steady Shot and Swift Shot by 1.)
Warden's: Should be bow only, at least for now, IMO. Not sure it needs a replacement until we get a Chronomancy Slings class. (This isn't necessary, though.)
Artifacts:
World-Artifacts:
Eldoral Last Resort: -1 to cooldown of Swift Shot/-2 to Throat Smasher instead?
Ring of the War Master: +0.3 to the Techniques added.
Hareskin Sling: Mmmm. Arguably could keep Inertial Shot just fine, since it's an activated skill.
...huh, fewer items than I thought would need a change.
EDIT 2: Hurricane Shot hits people twice starting from TL2. Ryoshi (using an earlier vers) reports this also applies at L1, and I can confirm this.
1) Two "You must weild a sling!" messages pop up in the dialogue box as the character loads. Not sure this is necessary/it's "wield".
2) Sling Supremacy: Whenevry->Whenever.
3) There's a missing period at the end of the final Acrobatics skill.
A final pedant note: I'd standardize your stuff just a bit better with DG's and switch "rank" to "talent points" or "effective talent level"; while it's pretty obvious what you're talking about as a native English speaker, it might cause some translation confusion for our other communities.
This all having been said? Holy hell this class looks awesome. Thanks for submitting this! I'll try playing through with this and see what feedback I have to offer as I go through, but thus far I like the reload change/the skills look really solid!
EDIT: Mentioned in chat that some egos may need to be made archer only/some added sling-only egos would need to replace them perhaps. A quick list:
Steady: Bow only. For slings, replace with "Rapid" and have it reduce the cooldown of Swift Shot by 1? (Alternately, change the ego name to Rapid and have it reduce the cooldown of both Steady Shot and Swift Shot by 1.)
Warden's: Should be bow only, at least for now, IMO. Not sure it needs a replacement until we get a Chronomancy Slings class. (This isn't necessary, though.)
Artifacts:
World-Artifacts:
Eldoral Last Resort: -1 to cooldown of Swift Shot/-2 to Throat Smasher instead?
Ring of the War Master: +0.3 to the Techniques added.
Hareskin Sling: Mmmm. Arguably could keep Inertial Shot just fine, since it's an activated skill.
...huh, fewer items than I thought would need a change.
EDIT 2: Hurricane Shot hits people twice starting from TL2. Ryoshi (using an earlier vers) reports this also applies at L1, and I can confirm this.
Re: Skirmisher Master Thread (New Class, NOW PLAYABLE)
Yeah the descriptions are not entirely accurate and the skills don't all work exactly how I want them to yet. Glad you're excited for the class though!