Making Block viable on Insane/Madness

[bpat]

Block is pretty great on Normal since it usually absorbs at least 70% of the damage you'd take, but it scales very poorly on high difficulties. Block has several issues that make it much weaker outside of Normal.

1. It blocks a flat amount of damage which isn't that significant when dealing with enemies that are level 80 or higher.
2. It requires both prodigy points to be a viable defensive mechanic against all enemies, meaning you can take neither Flexible Combat nor Swift Hands.

With regards to the first issue, I propose changing Block so it will block a minimum percentage of incoming damage (of the types that can be blocked). This percentage would be equal to 10 per Block talent level, capped at 50% (so enemies with absurdly high talent levels won't benefit. This bonus could either be added to the regular Block talent or to the Spectral Shield prodigy, and if necessary it could only apply to non-physical attacks. I don't have any ideas for fixing the second issue short of merging Eternal Guard and Spectral Shield, which would be very overpowered on Normal.

[Fortescue]

I agree that Block needs work, but I don't like having to activate it to use it. Why wouldn't someone who is holding a shield just attempt to use it whenever they get attacked? Now, if a class like Bulwark thematically could benefit from spending a whole turn explicitly blocking just to gain some kind of bonus or retaliation chance (like Disarming Feint in my Duelist cat), that is another matter. In general though, I don't like having to activate a skill to use Shields.

[Furey]

Really agree with the turn to activate shields being a pain. Perhaps as suggested above, shield specialists like bulwark get something special for actively blocking, or perhaps a skill in their tree to make it take less than a turn to activate.

Also agree with BPat. Blocking on anything above normal is quite depressing. :/

[Marson]

Shields increase armor and defense, something you don't typically get with a weapon. That's your passive benefit of carrying a shield and using it to block in the normal course of combat. The talent Block, to me, seems to be a very concerted effort on defense. You forgo an attack and concentrate fully on blocking, thus get a greater benefit from the shield. As I recall, it drops your defense to 0, as you are planted and not dodging—you are making yourself a steel wall.

[Fortescue]

Shields increase armor and defense, something you don't typically get with a weapon.

Neither of these things are super important in the grand scheme of things where magical damage that doesn't hardly ever miss is what kills most characters afaik. It is definitely what kills most players in difficulties past normal, based on what Shibari has told me. Standard shield blocking is just a waste of turn and the item slot is wasted unless you're a Bulwark / Sun Paladin.

When it comes down to theme vs. mechanical viability, mechanics trump theme every time, or the game suffers.

[Marson]

Now, if a class like Bulwark thematically could benefit from spending a whole turn explicitly blocking just to gain some kind of bonus or retaliation chance (like Disarming Feint in my Duelist cat), that is another matter.

Doesn't a 200% damage Counterstrike count? Without any Prodigies, that almost makes up for a turn not attacking, depending on your on-hits.

Your justification for making Block "always on" was theme-based in my eyes. I was just using a theme-based counter to match.

If there's a problem with Block, you can certainly make changes to it without removing the activation.

I will say that my Stone Warden made excellent use of Block, but I haven't tried using it on a character who didn't have other talents to support a shield. It seems a weapon would be a better choice.

[Doctornull]

Doesn't a 200% damage Counterstrike count? Without any Prodigies, that almost makes up for a turn not attacking, depending on your on-hits.

Yeah I can often get a 2 or 3-turn Counterstrike on 2 dudes who I then hit for 200% damage each, so I get 4 turns of damage with just 3 turns of dude-stabbing.

Not to say that Block shouldn't be better, especially at higher difficulties, but as a tool of offense augmentation it's already pretty spiffy.

[bpat]

I agree with Marson, there's nothing wrong with having to activate Block considering the advantages you get from reducing incoming damage and counter attacking. Assault and Overpower are the only talents I know of that can allow you to hit for 1000 around level 15, except for maybe an Arcane Blade's Flurry, which is still weaker than a counter attacking Assault on the same class. Changing Block to be some sort of passive would be boring and less tactical, the idea of focusing entirely on defenses for a turn is fine but the execution could use some work.

Shields increase armor and defense, something you don't typically get with a weapon.

Neither of these things are super important in the grand scheme of things where magical damage that doesn't hardly ever miss is what kills most characters afaik. It is definitely what kills most players in difficulties past normal, based on what Shibari has told me. Standard shield blocking is just a waste of turn and the item slot is wasted unless you're a Bulwark / Sun Paladin.

When it comes down to theme vs. mechanical viability, mechanics trump theme every time, or the game suffers.

I agree that mechanical viability is important, but I disagree that Block taking a turn makes it in any way inviable. Many important defensive talents take a turn to use, including Barrier, Arcane Reconstruction, Providence, Stone Wall, and Leaves' Tide. If you've played a Bulwark or Sun Paladin to the endgame on Normal you'd notice that Block is a very strong defense mechanic despite it taking a turn. Making it instant would be ridiculously overpowered on difficulties that aren't Madness thanks to the Counterstrike debuff and nerfing Counterstrike to make Block instant is absolutely not worth it. If my suggestion of reducing incoming damage by at least half (numbers can be adjusted), Block would be much more viable on Insane despite it taking a turn.

[Fortescue]

Doesn't a 200% damage Counterstrike count? Without any Prodigies, that almost makes up for a turn not attacking, depending on your on-hits.

Yeah I can often get a 2 or 3-turn Counterstrike on 2 dudes who I then hit for 200% damage each, so I get 4 turns of damage with just 3 turns of dude-stabbing.

Not to say that Block shouldn't be better, especially at higher difficulties, but as a tool of offense augmentation it's already pretty spiffy.

You only get that bonus with Riposte though, or you wouldn't get nearly as many chances for Counterstrikes. You could remove the generic Block button and give Riposte a Block button with it that achieves what the current Block button does right now. Then Bulwarks (etc...) would play functionally similar to right now and other classes could actually benefit from holding a Shield by giving Shields a passive blocking component that is % based total damage negation (like Evasion) instead of a stat that doesn't scale out of normal mode (defense).

I agree that mechanical viability is important, but I disagree that Block taking a turn makes it in any way inviable. Many important defensive talents take a turn to use, including Barrier, Arcane Reconstruction, Providence, Stone Wall, and Leaves' Tide.

All or nearly all of those (too lazy to wiki each one) talents last multiple turns after the one you spent activating them, so yeah, they're definitely better than Block.

[Doctornull]

You only get that bonus as a Bulwark though, since without Riposte you wouldn't get nearly as many chances for Counterstrikes.

That is incorrect, most Shield classes get Riposte.

[Fortescue]

You only get that bonus as a Bulwark though, since without Riposte you wouldn't get nearly as many chances for Counterstrikes.

That is incorrect, most Shield classes get Riposte.

Thanks for pointing that out.

[ZyZ]

There is no way to make talents based on fixed amount of dmg / dmg reduction work well with talents that scale (with stats/ talent level / incoming dmg etc).

Cursed sanctuary (gloom tree) is an example of defence skill that scale. It's quite good on normal and it gets better on higher difficulties because it blocks more dmg (around 1/3 of incoming dmg). There are no fixed numbers invloved. Enemy hits harder = your defence becomes better (by that i mean it blocks more dmg points) There are quite a few skills that work this way but not many. All ignore dmg skills and improving resistance effects (dmg resonance, resolve, juggernaut etc) are great examples. Useful and desired on all difficulty levels.

Solipsist forge shield is an example of skill that scale (with mindpower) but base vaule is a fixed number and as result skill provides good protection on normal but is rather insignificant on higher difficulty levels. There is little to no correlation between attack power and amount of dmg blocked. Most skills fits into this category (regeneration, antimagic and most arcane shields, healing etc). They work quite well on nightmare but you start to see problems on insane. There is huge difference between isane and madness so i can assume there is no big difference between skills from this category and fixed value protection on highest difficulty level.

Fixed amount block from items or shields doesnt scale at all. They are useless on higher difficulty levels.

[bpat]

I agree that mechanical viability is important, but I disagree that Block taking a turn makes it in any way inviable. Many important defensive talents take a turn to use, including Barrier, Arcane Reconstruction, Providence, Stone Wall, and Leaves' Tide.

All or nearly all of those (too lazy to wiki each one) talents last multiple turns after the one you spent activating them, so yeah, they're definitely better than Block.

If I recall correctly, Block's cooldown gets down to three at level 5 and it lasts two turn with Eternal Guard. There is nothing wrong with it taking a turn as long as it's buffed to be better on higher difficulties. All of those talents I listed have a much longer cooldown and many aren't good at all compared to how Block would be if it reduced a minimum of half the incoming damage like I suggested. If that were implemented, I'd take Block (with the prodigies) over all of those other talents except maybe Stone Wall and Leaves' Tide situationally, both of which have very long cooldowns in comparison.

Have you actually played a Bulwark or Sun Paladin to the endgame? On my Normal Sun Paladin winner Block was much more useful for defense than Barrier, Providence, or Retribution, so I'm not sure what basis you have for saying Block is bad on Normal just because it takes a turn to use. Currently Bulwarks probably do more damage than Berserkers thanks to Block and the Shield Offense category.

There is no way to make talents based on fixed amount of dmg / dmg reduction work well with talents that scale (with stats/ talent level / incoming dmg etc).

Cursed sanctuary (gloom tree) is an example of defence skill that scale. It's quite good on normal and it gets better on higher difficulties because it blocks more dmg (around 1/3 of incoming dmg). There are no fixed numbers invloved. Enemy hits harder = your defence becomes better (by that i mean it blocks more dmg points) There are quite a few skills that work this way but not many. All ignore dmg skills and improving resistance effects (dmg resonance, resolve, juggernaut etc) are great examples. Useful and desired on all difficulty levels.

Solipsist forge shield is an example of skill that scale (with mindpower) but base vaule is a fixed number and as result skill provides good protection on normal but is rather insignificant on higher difficulty levels. There is little to no correlation between attack power and amount of dmg blocked. Most skills fits into this category (regeneration, antimagic and most arcane shields, healing etc). They work quite well on nightmare but you start to see problems on insane. There is huge difference between isane and madness so i can assume there is no big difference between skills from this category and fixed value protection on highest difficulty level.

Fixed amount block from items or shields doesnt scale at all. They are useless on higher difficulty levels.

I completely agree with this. Blocking a flat amount of damage scales very poorly on higher difficulties, making talents like Block, Forge Shield, and Antimagic Shield useless outside of Normal and Nightmare. This issue is why I recommend Block (maybe with Spectral Shield) reduce incoming damage by at least half. This would make it act more like Sanctuary, allowing it to scale much better into higher difficulties.

[Fortescue]

I never said Block is bad for classes that ARE SPECIALIZED IN BLOCKING I'm done talking though, hopefully when Skirmisher is done it can be used as a model for future Shield mechanics.

[MarginalMagus]

This sounds like a great idea, and a relatively plausible change. I'm curious though: I've been following this community for many months now and witnessed many balance discussions, many of which seemed like real improvements to the game. Who is intended to see these conversations and make the change, though? If it's just darkgod, there have been one too many ideas over the last month or so for one guy to catch them all and make a decision on them (although he is impressively active). Is there a way we could collect and submit the most valuable changes? I am especially interested in balancing the higher difficulties and smoothing the curve so the game is less about slaughtering mobs of easy monsters and instantly dying to one terrifying rare. The community has proposed a lot of fixes, but iteration must be difficult when updating this game obseletes all saves.