Bloodied Berserker Phase 1 - Core Categories Revamp

[Davion Fuxa]

Some things to throw in as a bit of resistance:

One of the advantages of the current Berserker Class is that it is a fairly simple and easy class to play. As someone who came from other Roguelikes I'd have to say that the more 'classic' bump style featured on the class with a few supportive skills made the current Berserker more favorable to play while easing me into some of the aspects ToME offers as a 'Tactical Roguelike'. This isn't to say that the current Talent set may make the Berserker complicated or hard to play but that players coming into the game might be better off with the current simple class structure that is currently present - ie, a more Transitional Class.

Another lesser concern is how changing around the Berserkers talents will effect other classes talents. Wyrmics and Arcane Blades might be the first candidates that come to mind for the Two Handed Weapon and Two Handed Maiming categories they have. Bulwarks and Marauders also share many support skills. Removal or Replacement though is of course viable; Wyrmics and Arcane Blade for example perhaps could get a generic Two Handed Weapon category or maybe the Berserker Talents could be rearranged into 'Berserker Only' or 'Open to Other' categories - still needs to be discussed some I believe though.

Perhaps of course though just to throw it out - what are there in the prospects of redesigning the Berserker as an entirely new class while taking the current setup and keeping most aspects of it and renaming it into something else? Some benefits of doing that is that people can get their thematic Berserker while a more 'Newbie' Oriented Warrior could be thrown in to compliment Bulwarks and share its Talents with other classes.

[bpat]

Some things to throw in as a bit of resistance:

One of the advantages of the current Berserker Class is that it is a fairly simple and easy class to play. As someone who came from other Roguelikes I'd have to say that the more 'classic' bump style featured on the class with a few supportive skills made the current Berserker more favorable to play while easing me into some of the aspects ToME offers as a 'Tactical Roguelike'. This isn't to say that the current Talent set may make the Berserker complicated or hard to play but that players coming into the game might be better off with the current simple class structure that is currently present - ie, a more Transitional Class.

Another lesser concern is how changing around the Berserkers talents will effect other classes talents. Wyrmics and Arcane Blades might be the first candidates that come to mind for the Two Handed Weapon and Two Handed Maiming categories they have. Bulwarks and Marauders also share many support skills. Removal or Replacement though is of course viable; Wyrmics and Arcane Blade for example perhaps could get a generic Two Handed Weapon category or maybe the Berserker Talents could be rearranged into 'Berserker Only' or 'Open to Other' categories - still needs to be discussed some I believe though.

Perhaps of course though just to throw it out - what are there in the prospects of redesigning the Berserker as an entirely new class while taking the current setup and keeping most aspects of it and renaming it into something else? Some benefits of doing that is that people can get their thematic Berserker while a more 'Newbie' Oriented Warrior could be thrown in to compliment Bulwarks and share its Talents with other classes.

I agree that a generic warrior is great for new players. I always find myself recommending the current Berserker as the easiest class to learn the game with and without it I guess Bulwark will have to fill that niche. I'm not sure how easy or appealing it would be to leave both versions as playable classes but its an interesting idea.

As for how this affects other classes, Arcane Blades would probably get the two-handed assault category (and still never use it over dual-wield or shield) and Wyrmics could get one or both of the core categories (they definitely need the buff...).

[Faeryan]

Sounds really nice, though one thing that might make this rather too strong is the tree that gives stamina regen and stamina gain when killing a mob.
Can't remember their max level values but hoping they're not high enough to feed the new talents.

I don't really like that tree and I'm not sure if anyone on the dev team does. It is just really boring except for the final skill in it. Chances are this tree could be up for removal or re-imagining in the future. For right now, people would have to spend a Category point to open it up once these changes go live.

Might be boring but it means you can endlessly chain Fearless Cleave and throw in a few higher cost talents whenever they're up.

[Razakai]

These changes are good. It'd be a shame to lose the entire 2h Maiming Tree though, as I liked the idea of a single target debuff/control tree. I posted a rework of it over in http://forums.te4.org/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=40124 although that'd mean there'd need to be 2 more talents created for the existing trees to fit the Stunning/Shattering Blow gap. From the same topic, Superiority could do with some changes. I agree with the above comments about giving Battle Cry an additional debuff along the lines of making them more vulnerable/weaker once they do get pulled in.
And yeah, Warcries and the passive tree with stamina/health regen talents really need a look at too. I agree with removing the passive tree entirely, it's just dull.

[Fortescue]

For balance sake I think 2H Assault and Strength of the Berserker will be Berserker-Only for the foreseeable future. 2H Maiming / 2H Weapon Offense will not be removed from the game, just from Berserker as it is getting 2 far superior categories. Bloodthirst being removed from Marauder is the final step is making this new Berserker very unique / addressing balance issues.

As far as Berserker being too complicated, it isn't even with these changes. All that is different is your primary sustain talent is much more powerful, but needs managed more closely (until you have Unstoppable / lots of hp regen), and you have more fun buttons to press that let you be much more aggressive. It should make playing a Berserker FEEL like a Berserker and a proper ToME class (more interesting than average RL classes). Old Berserker just.. doesn't. There is not enough reward for being aggressive and taking risks. It is counter-intuitive to the concept of what people commonly think of as a Berserker, so I would say this is actually a step in the direction of new player friendliness along with all the other benefits.

Making this into its own new class would be pointless. Old Berserker is boring and weak aside from Stunning Blow and Unstoppable, and Unstoppable is an overpowered skill in general. When a single OP skill is all that is holding a class together, that is a huge problem. Marauder is next on our chopping block I'm currently thinking the replacement for Bloodthirst will be a new and exciting unique tree called Banditry, but of course this is all up to DarkGod in the end.

[Fortescue]

Might be boring but it means you can endlessly chain Fearless Cleave and throw in a few higher cost talents whenever they're up.

Only if there are multiple enemies that aren't standing next to you. If you Fearless Cleave into the space next to an enemy (as intended) and hit them, you can't hit the same enemy with it again because you HAVE to move 1 space to use it, and moving diagonally past the enemy would cause the arc to swing away from it. You could hit a different enemy that is one space away from you with another Fearless Cleave, or you could use Confusing Shout, or Death Dance, or Stunning Blow, or Shattering Blow, or Execution... but unless the first enemy was running away that turn you wouldn't be able to hit them with it again.

[Mankeli]

...more fun buttons to press that let you be much more aggressive.

Huh, personally I feel that TOME classes in general have a bit too many buttons to press. If you have something like 10 talents to use in every fight it makes the game experience lag pretty badly (not claiming the new berserker has 10 talents) IMO.

Also I feel like people overvalue the "tactical aspect" or whatever of talent using. Is it really that much more tactical to press "1" in the typewriter keys than it is to press "1" in numbad? If the talent is good and you need it then you use it -if it's not, you don't. As melee character the most important thing for you will be positioning/moving into positions anyways (some talents help with this, of course).

Straightforward does not necessarily mean boring nor does it necessarily mean easy.

It should make playing a Berserker FEEL like a Berserker and a proper ToME class (more interesting than average RL classes). Old Berserker just.. doesn't. There is not enough reward for being aggressive and taking risks.

In a roguelike people usually try to avoid risks in any way or form you possibly can because if you take that 0.01 % chance of losing your character in every fight, you will lose your character. I actually think that unstoppable is very berserkish as is taking delight in scoring critical hits etc. That being said I do feel like cursed rampage tree is more berserkish than all the berserker stuff excluding like 3 talents.

Making this into its own new class would be pointless. Old Berserker is boring and weak aside from Stunning Blow and Unstoppable, and Unstoppable is an overpowered skill in general. When a single OP skill is all that is holding a class together, that is a huge problem.

I don't think berserkers are that boring. One of the things that makes them not boring for me is the very fact that they don't have 10 skills to use constantly. I agree with your point about unstoppable though: it is problematic when one skill is so good it becomes like glue keeping everything together.

[Faeryan]

Might be boring but it means you can endlessly chain Fearless Cleave and throw in a few higher cost talents whenever they're up.

Only if there are multiple enemies that aren't standing next to you. If you Fearless Cleave into the space next to an enemy (as intended) and hit them, you can't hit the same enemy with it again because you HAVE to move 1 space to use it, and moving diagonally past the enemy would cause the arc to swing away from it. You could hit a different enemy that is one space away from you with another Fearless Cleave, or you could use Confusing Shout, or Death Dance, or Stunning Blow, or Shattering Blow, or Execution... but unless the first enemy was running away that turn you wouldn't be able to hit them with it again.

Yes, that kinda proves my point. You said the power level of these new talents is balanced by the high stamina cost. Thing is that with Combat Veteran tree, as boring it is, will make the stamina costs nearly irrelevant.

Just gotta find the time to try before judging though.

[Fortescue]

If someone wants to spend a category point on CV passives to stomp around with Fearless Cleave I don't see why that is a problem. Being able to push more buttons was a primary goal of my work

Also I am very interested in making Con a more competitive stat for Berserkers, and that will likely materialize in the form of a replacement for CV. Right now I don't feel like there is a reason to get more than the 60 Con to max Thick Skin. After that Dex is king secondary offense and defense stat.

[bpat]

If someone wants to spend a category point on CV passives to stomp around with Fearless Cleave I don't see why that is a problem. Being able to push more buttons was a primary goal of my work

Also I am very interested in making Con a more competitive stat for Berserkers, and that will likely materialize in the form of a replacement for CV. Right now I don't feel like there is a reason to get more than the 60 Con to max Thick Skin. After that Dex is king secondary offense and defense stat.

Being able to push more buttons is not necessarily a good thing. Cursed is one of the most popular and fun classes in the game and it has maybe 5 useful buttons (Rampage, Blindside, Reckless Charge, Beckon, and Harass Prey). There is nothing wrong with having a bunch of passives and Combat Veteran is no exception. Anyway, if it's removed or locked the class will be very frustrating to start on high difficulties without ridiculous luck or startscumming for good Mindblast Torques since the health regeneration is very helpful early. Since the category is only really good early, there's no harm keeping the category since its definitely not overpowered but still nice to have.

[PureQuestion]

60 Con is a lot of Con !

[bpat]

Do people even put points in Con for Thick Skin? It's not that hard to get to 59 Con by the end of the game. I don't think any of my winners failed to get enough Con with items for 5/5 Thick Skin. As far as I can tell, the only reason to get Con is for Unflinching Resolve, which stops being particularly useful once you have 100% stun resistance or double Movement Infusions.

[Fortescue]

Meh... I guess 60 Con is a decent amount, it just isn't very exciting what you get for it. 50 of your 150~ points spent on it, so you can make incoming numbers smaller. Shoot, with the power gains you get from being injured, some players might not even think maxing out Thick Skin is all that necessary. Just dumping into Dex will make you nearly immune to crits, and without having to worry about lots of damage spikes this Berserker is going to be pretty easy to play.

edit: bpat actually described even better than I did why Con is not really a good stat even for Berserkers, who you would think would rely on it more than anyone.

double dit: I was going to respond to bpat w/ another post, but meh, I'll just put it here. I'm not saying Combat Veteran needs replaced / fixed by adding more actives. Berserker probably has enough of those now. What I would do is try to make those passives more fun / interesting, with a heavy emphasis on giving more value to Constitution.

One of my failings in this Berserker revamp is that there really is just one Berserker build, because Str and Dex are the only really meaningful stats to dump into, and you have plenty of points to pump them both way the hell up. I would like to go back and make Constitution a contender with Dexterity as a good defensive and, if I can be creative, offensive statistic.

[Faeryan]

Just downloaded the add-on and it shows active on my add-ons list in-game, yet I can't see any new classes nor does it change the current Berserker. Am I doing it wrong or what gives?

[bpat]

One of my failings in this Berserker revamp is that there really is just one Berserker build, because Str and Dex are the only really meaningful stats to dump into, and you have plenty of points to pump them both way the hell up. I would like to go back and make Constitution a contender with Dexterity as a good defensive and, if I can be creative, offensive statistic.

Cunning is also worth noting since 50 Cunning translates into 15% crit chance, making it great on any class and build. Dexterity's only significant contribution to this class is the fact that Greater Weapon Focus (from a ring in this case), Precise Strikes, and Grace of the Eternals (since Shalore is the best race for Berserker) scale well with it. The accuracy is meaningless since anything that's dodging you with 5/5 Combat Accuracy must be using a talent like Evasion which accuracy doesn't help with, the defense is meaningless since Berserkers wearing heavy or massive armor should be able to tank physical attacks and defense as a stat is only good in very high quantities and outclassed by the Evasion talent anyways, and the critical shrug off is nice but not essential since Berserkers can't die during Unstoppable. I'd argue that since Dexterity isn't much better than Constitution for Berserkers, making Dexterity have a bigger impact as well as Constitution would be a welcome change.