Nullpack 2019-02-21: Gravitic Infantry

[devilindupriest]

Played with Flenser a bit, I'm not good with that sort of class and didn't make it far (and thus probably wont really have much good feedback on balance even when I try again), but the first couple of levels had a fun dynamic to them. I'm not sure it would have continued at higher levels but I was enjoying the combination of rush to an opponent then blood cone aoe into the group, then kind of dancing around the edge finishing them off.

[Doctornull]

I'm not sure it would have continued at higher levels but I was enjoying the combination of rush to an opponent then blood cone aoe into the group, then kind of dancing around the edge finishing them off.

Flenser's fun starts at level 4 with Blood Grasp and Rain of Agony, but the real synergy takes until level 8 when Twist the Knife comes online. Once you have Scholar of Brutality and Twist the Knife, you'll be able to debuff pretty much anything.

[Doctornull]

The Heavy: Temporal Assault

Their Temporal Infantry tree got some tweaking, so the damage values are more in line with other talents of their price and level. The class has gained a new high-level tree, Temporal Assault: it gives them better control over their own fate, the ability to punish speedy foes, a unique mid-fight recovery mechanic, and at high levels the ability to penetrate both resistances and magical shields.

Enjoy!

[nukularpower]

Just a bit of feedback after playing with the pack for a while. Firstly, Stormwardens: It seems like an interesting idea, but I guess I'm just not really "getting it". I thought I was getting a lightning themed archer; Instead, it seems more like some sort of Master of the Elements thing. That's all well and good, but given the name, I was expecting a bit more zap.

Outside of the 1st and 4rth talents in Thunderstrike and the Storm tree, I don't see much emphasis on lightning with Stormwarden at all. And again, I don't really get how the multi-element tree fits with their theme - it just doesn't seem to gel, to me, when I was expecting something more like "converts x% of your damage to lightning" to sync up Tempest and bowshots. And while I like the idea of short-duration and expensive damage buffs, the payoff here is rather weak, in that respect - for something you have to spend so much mana on, it doesn't seem to do any more damage than any class damage perma-sustain, such as Firey Hands.

I will also mention that I'm finding trying to get an archer started on Nightmare without Flare is quite miserable; I really wish Archery Prowess started unlocked for the class. Actually, it seems like many of the classes in the pack suffer from an overabundance of locked trees, something I personally am not a fan of, but again, in the case of this class in particular, I just may not be understanding how it's supposed to work - I almost feel it would be best used as an excuse to play a dual-weilder with Time Shield, as it is.

The Flenser is my favorite class by far, from what I have played. It seems by far the most unified in theme, especially compared to the aforementioned Stormwarden. I will have to get one to live past level 10 to say more on them, though!

Heavy also looks fun, and I will be giving them a try. However, I get the feeling they may end up as being a simple Invigorate -> Assault spam bot, given how OP that attack is (from vanilla, I know, but still.) Terminal Velocity looks like it will be handy, but again, the damage on it is pretty low... especially when you can Assault every 3 turns ^^. The Temporal Assault tree seems pretty awesome on the whole, though! I especially like how you tied in Spin Fate.

Lastly, I will say that it seems to me that you have made a very strong effort to make sure your classes are not overpowered. If I had to pick one comment to leave, it would be that I feel you may have stepped a bit too far in that direction; many attacks in the pack seem quite a bit weaker than comparable vanilla ones. Of course, a big part of that may just be Flurry and Assault making everything else look bad, but until DG fixes that problem...

Anyways, thanks for the hard work making the addon, and off to try that Heavy

[devilindupriest]

That is a sexy talent tree. I usually go shield defense at 10 so far, but that's going to be a hard choice. And Superiority would be such excellent fun. I know people don't like it, but when it works, it works. Nothing funnier than Onslaught if you have the room to work it. Mob steps forward, bump attack and send it back. It's turn now, it walks forward. Bump attack and send it back. It's turn again....

[Doctornull]

Just a bit of feedback after playing with the pack for a while. Firstly, Stormwardens: It seems like an interesting idea, but I guess I'm just not really "getting it". I thought I was getting a lightning themed archer; Instead, it seems more like some sort of Master of the Elements thing. That's all well and good, but given the name, I was expecting a bit more zap.

Outside of the 1st and 4rth talents in Thunderstrike and the Storm tree, I don't see much emphasis on lightning with Stormwarden at all. And again, I don't really get how the multi-element tree fits with their theme - it just doesn't seem to gel, to me, when I was expecting something more like "converts x% of your damage to lightning" to sync up Tempest and bowshots.

IMHO the Thunderstrike tree is very stormy, even the non-lightning attacks, but that's a matter of opinion I guess.

My idea for the Stormwarden is that they're a rather desperate rag-tag precursor to the Temporal Warden class. They're using whatever tools they can, including dipping into dangerous and volatile "surge" magic, in pursuit of their presumably noble goal of protecting & policing the magical community. Their tools are specifically intended to allow them to fight people who shut down Archmages (anti-magic and Corruptors): they rely on very few sustains, and their buffs are specific to a variety of situations.

Many of their effects are less-elegant versions of the Temporal Warden, like how Lightning Leap is basically Temporal Wake but with a worse damage type and a worse status effect (daze is not as good as stun), but they make it work for them by incorporating the Archmage Storm tree which turns daze into a hurricane proc.

And while I like the idea of short-duration and expensive damage buffs, the payoff here is rather weak, in that respect - for something you have to spend so much mana on, it doesn't seem to do any more damage than any class damage perma-sustain, such as Firey Hands.

The payoff is partly in the damage, and my target was to exceed the damage you would get from Weapon Folding at low levels, and to give your melee & archery attacks respectable damage at high levels (counting damage twice for melee because you're expected to be dual-weapon, and counting the high rate of fire & multiattack Archery talents). But in general I think the status effects will be worth more than the raw damage. Your attacks will daze, stun, pin and blind, and those are all good status effects.

The damage values may be too low. I'm trying to tweak them to get the scaling to work how I want it, and I'm not very good at that yet.

I will also mention that I'm finding trying to get an archer started on Nightmare without Flare is quite miserable; I really wish Archery Prowess started unlocked for the class. Actually, it seems like many of the classes in the pack suffer from an overabundance of locked trees, something I personally am not a fan of, but again, in the case of this class in particular, I just may not be understanding how it's supposed to work - I almost feel it would be best used as an excuse to play a dual-weilder with Time Shield, as it is.

I'll unlock Archery Prowess. There's no good reason it needs to be locked except my desire to focus the class on its surge arcana.

In terms of design, I want the Storm Warden to be playable as 100% archery, or 100% dual-dagger, or a mix of both. Their closer / kite talents are hopefully flexible enough to support either strategy, or a mixed skirmishing strategy.

The Flenser is my favorite class by far, from what I have played. It seems by far the most unified in theme, especially compared to the aforementioned Stormwarden. I will have to get one to live past level 10 to say more on them, though!

Awesome, I look forward to reading your exploits. Also I'm curious if you think the Flenser holds together better than the Creep, or not.

Heavy also looks fun, and I will be giving them a try. However, I get the feeling they may end up as being a simple Invigorate -> Assault spam bot, given how OP that attack is (from vanilla, I know, but still.) Terminal Velocity looks like it will be handy, but again, the damage on it is pretty low...

Heh, please do try to abuse Assault as much as you can. It's a great skill.

Terminal Velocity is a special-use tool. It does two good things:
- It reduces Physical resistance
- It removes buffs from foes who have high Global speed
Also it causes some damage, and the damage increases with the victim's global speed, but that's just icing.

Use it before your Block -> Assault combo; for a TW, use it before a Flurry. (TW doesn't have Temporal Assault yet, but it's in my plan.)

Cheers!

[devilindupriest]

not a new thing, but something I've been thinking about as I work on rotation. not sure if confirmation bias or not, but I feel like I'm not having much luck with the pin from Heavy Impact. Either it happens and I only notice when it doesn't, or maybe it's not happening much for me. Either way I'm tending towards ground contraction-shield slam for the stun in case they move-heavy impact to try to pin after I step up to them..well, okay, most things are dead by then. Just thinking out loud, basically here. It feels like charge to pin should be a viable opening move, but I almost always tend to the stun. A charge that pins might be an option. Then charge to block to slam becomes viable..er. Man, they're all good, really.

[Doctornull]

not a new thing, but something I've been thinking about as I work on rotation. not sure if confirmation bias or not, but I feel like I'm not having much luck with the pin from Heavy Impact.

The pin effect uses your Spellpower to apply the status. If you haven't been pumping Magic -- and there's no necessity to do so early -- it won't be as reliable as Shield Bash.

If you do build Spellpower, then any Gravity weapon you find will benefit as well. Presumably you'll also unlock the Gravity tree or Time Travel tree if you go for Spellpower.

[devilindupriest]

not a new thing, but something I've been thinking about as I work on rotation. not sure if confirmation bias or not, but I feel like I'm not having much luck with the pin from Heavy Impact.

The pin effect uses your Spellpower to apply the status. If you haven't been pumping Magic -- and there's no necessity to do so early -- it won't be as reliable as Shield Bash.

If you do build Spellpower, then any Gravity weapon you find will benefit as well. Presumably you'll also unlock the Gravity tree or Time Travel tree if you go for Spellpower.

that would be it, yup. I've been pretty entirely ignoring magic for straight str/willpower. Thanks.

[malboro_urchin]

After playing Storm warden for a bit earlier today, I agree that the damage values could use a buff.

2 questions:
What's the best way to ensure that Lightning Leap dazes enemies (and thereby, hopefully proccing Hurricane)?
Would it be possible for Storm Surge to trigger Hurricane when your Storm Surge-buffed-attacks daze the enemy?

[Doctornull]

What's the best way to ensure that Lightning Leap dazes enemies (and thereby, hopefully proccing Hurricane)?

Build spellpower.

Would it be possible for Storm Surge to trigger Hurricane when your Storm Surge-buffed-attacks daze the enemy?

Yes, they can and will do this.

[nukularpower]

The damage values may be too low. I'm trying to tweak them to get the scaling to work how I want it, and I'm not very good at that yet.

I understand. What I mean when I talk about damage across the board, with most of your classes is that, say you look at Dual Strike, or pretty much any other attack skill in vanilla - they scale from 120% up or so. Most of the attacks in the pack start at 60%, which is a pretty big difference - the only vanilla attacks I can think of that start that low are Flurry and Dissolve, both of which do many hits. Another example would be DoT attacks - compare, say, the Vector's DoT attack (can't remember the name now, not the disease one, some arrow thing) to Flame, Poison, Disease, etc.

I guess I just dislike using attacks that actually do less damage than just bumping without a very good reason (eg, the 2nd attack in the Storm tree.) Yes, that one has some statuses... if you get it to level 5. And again, for this, I am talking about the pack on the whole, not just one class.

In terms of design, I want the Storm Warden to be playable as 100% archery, or 100% dual-dagger, or a mix of both. Their closer / kite talents are hopefully flexible enough to support either strategy, or a mixed skirmishing strategy.

Shortstaff + dagger seems far more effective to me so far than double dagger, actually.

[devilindupriest]

The damage values may be too low. I'm trying to tweak them to get the scaling to work how I want it, and I'm not very good at that yet.

I understand. What I mean when I talk about damage across the board, with most of your classes is that, say you look at Dual Strike, or pretty much any other attack skill in vanilla - they scale from 120% up or so. Most of the attacks in the pack start at 60%, which is a pretty big difference - the only vanilla attacks I can think of that start that low are Flurry and Dissolve, both of which do many hits. Another example would be DoT attacks - compare, say, the Vector's DoT attack (can't remember the name now, not the disease one, some arrow thing) to Flame, Poison, Disease, etc.

I guess I just dislike using attacks that actually do less damage than just bumping without a very good reason (eg, the 2nd attack in the Storm tree.) Yes, that one has some statuses... if you get it to level 5. And again, for this, I am talking about the pack on the whole, not just one class.

In terms of design, I want the Storm Warden to be playable as 100% archery, or 100% dual-dagger, or a mix of both. Their closer / kite talents are hopefully flexible enough to support either strategy, or a mixed skirmishing strategy.

Shortstaff + dagger seems far more effective to me so far than double dagger, actually.

Physical is the most common damage type, and probably the most resisted for that reason. Non-physical attacks and especially attacks with added effected should do less damage . Personally, if an attack (or class) can be described as 'like X in every way but better' I don't think it should exist, much less in an addon. Unless it's an actual direct line upgrade from X, anyway, or a specific core element of a class.

[nukularpower]

Some less, sure. But half? What's the point then? Why waste the energy to click if your specials do less damage than bumping?

Just my opinion, though.

[Doctornull]

What I mean when I talk about damage across the board, with most of your classes is that, say you look at Dual Strike, or pretty much any other attack skill in vanilla - they scale from 120% up or so. Most of the attacks in the pack start at 60%, which is a pretty big difference - the only vanilla attacks I can think of that start that low are Flurry and Dissolve, both of which do many hits.

The Nullpack attacks which start around 60% are also multi-hit. You're right that a multi-hit will start out looking more like Flurry than Dual Strike, since Dual Strike is actually just a single attack.

You're comparing two full attacks at 60% damage vs. one attack at 120% damage.

For Storm Warden, who gets surges which give on-hit status effects, getting two attacks -> two chances to inflict your status (or 4 if you're in melee), including effects like Blind and Pin and stacking Burning damage.

I guess I just dislike using attacks that actually do less damage than just bumping without a very good reason (eg, the 2nd attack in the Storm tree.) Yes, that one has some statuses... if you get it to level 5.

I guess you're exaggerating for humorous effect here? Wintery Wrath gives you two full attacks, and the status effects start at level 3.

Shortstaff + dagger seems far more effective to me so far than double dagger, actually.

Even with Dagger Mastery bought up? That's unusual.