Summoner… combat technique?? Instead: Unstable Summons.

[Delmuir]

Combat technique with a summoner doesn't make a lot of sense to me. More so, all of their summons are unlocked to start. I suggest getting rid of Combat Technique and replace it with a category I call "Unstable Summons."

I've long had a criticism of the lack of synergy and gameplay options with the Summoner but have repeatedly been shut-down for fear of overpowering an all-ready powerful character (and enemy). More so, I had an idea about a "Demon summoning mage" who could lose control of their summons. I've decided to try this as another solution:

Benefits:

More gameplay options. More synergy. More strategic options. It'd also be an optional tree…

Negatives:

Lose the Combat Technique tree. You can lose control of the summon. Other criticisms I'll leave up to you all as you're better at grasping the balance issues than I am.

Unstable Summons:

All "unstable summons" can break free of your control and when they do, they rage-attack you and/or your summons. This happens based on a combination of stats and time: more constitution, willpower, and cunning. The longer the summon is alive, the more likely it is to turn on you and your allies. More so, if you don't have enough stats, then that chance increases… if you lose control, its turn-count resets so you have to deal with it for the full duration of its summoning time.

My suggestion is that when first acquired, they have 50% chance of turning against you upon summoning. This drops 10% each level until at 10% at lvl 5. Then, each turn (based on stats), they have a small chance to turn on you, with that chance growing each turn.

Frost wolf:

A freeze and cold immune wolf which does physical damage and, when in play with a Rimebark, has a synergy boost of cold damage.

Lightning-wasp infested tree:

Similar to the trees that spawn wasp-like enemies in the old forest. It's immobile but spawns an army of lightning wasps…

Forest Sprite:

A status effect oriented summon which casts things like confuse, blind, etc. and can heal you and escorts. This one has a very long survival time… can teleport but does very little damage. It can also extend the life of your summons (which can be a danger if you're using unstable summons as the chance of losing control should grow dramatically if their life is extended).

Iron Golem:

A massive, slow, tank of a summon. Immune to being pushed back, it crushes, pins, strangles, and mauls enemies. It suffers a global speed penalty but is also immune to poison, cuts and bleeding, and blight damage.

Also, this summon can only be summoned right next to you (adding to the danger) but when summoned on top of an enemy, it will push it back.


Thoughts? Criticisms?

[The Revanchist]

Combat technique with a summoner doesn't make a lot of sense to me. More so, all of their summons are unlocked to start. I suggest getting rid of Combat Technique and replace it with a category I call "Unstable Summons."

Why they need any physical trees is beyond me, really...

I've long had a criticism of the lack of synergy and gameplay options with the Summoner but have repeatedly been shut-down for fear of overpowering an all-ready powerful character (and enemy). More so, I had an idea about a "Demon summoning mage" who could lose control of their summons.

Demon summoner/Demonologist is planned already,if I recall. But I like this alternative...

Benefits:

More gameplay options. More synergy. More strategic options. It'd also be an optional tree…

Negatives:

Lose the Combat Technique tree. You can lose control of the summon. Other criticisms I'll leave up to you all as you're better at grasping the balance issues than I am.

Allow me to shed a single, contempt-filled tear.
Does anyone even use that tree on a summoner?

Unstable Summons:

All "unstable summons" can break free of your control and when they do, they rage-attack you and/or your summons. This happens based on a combination of stats and time: more constitution, willpower, and cunning. The longer the summon is alive, the more likely it is to turn on you and your allies. More so, if you don't have enough stats, then that chance increases… if you lose control, its turn-count resets so you have to deal with it for the full duration of its summoning time.

Good... so far.

My suggestion is that when first acquired, they have 50% chance of turning against you upon summoning. This drops 10% each level until at 10% at lvl 5. Then, each turn (based on stats), they have a small chance to turn on you, with that chance growing each turn.

And what if the slap a Category point on it? That 50% to 10% turns from 50 to 0? Or does nothing?

Frost wolf:
A freeze and cold immune wolf which does physical damage and, when in play with a Rimebark, has a synergy boost of cold damage.

I like the idea of these synergies, but they seem really similar to a Warhound...

Lightning-wasp infested tree:
Similar to the trees that spawn wasp-like enemies in the old forest. It's immobile but spawns an army of lightning wasps…

This one is cool. Would their summons count toward your limit, though?

Forest Sprite:
A status effect oriented summon which casts things like confuse, blind, etc. and can heal you and escorts. This one has a very long survival time… can teleport but does very little damage. It can also extend the life of your summons (which can be a danger if you're using unstable summons as the chance of losing control should grow dramatically if their life is extended).

Not sure what to say about this one...

Iron Golem:
A massive, slow, tank of a summon. Immune to being pushed back, it crushes, pins, strangles, and mauls enemies. It suffers a global speed penalty but is also immune to poison, cuts and bleeding, and blight damage.

Also, this summon can only be summoned right next to you (adding to the danger) but when summoned on top of an enemy, it will push it back.

I assume those are together? Anyway: This summon is interesting. I assume it would be able to consistently beat a Stone Golem, though?

Thoughts? Criticisms?

Perhaps some of the Unstable Summons should be changed, to make them feel more... unstable, but other than that, it seems like a good way to add some excitement.
What would Grand Arrival do? Would it help, harm, godmode?
What about Blighted Summoning?

[Delmuir]

Revanchist,
great feedback.

Frost wolf does seem a bit familiar and that's probably due a lack of imagination on my part. Can we make it a polar bear? I always wanted one as a pet anyway...

Sprite… I just thought some status effects would be fun with a summoner and terrifying if it turned on you. I don't really know if it's a good idea or not. Although, you could give it my "Hail storm" ability… a huge, area effect physical/ice damage spell. It would hit a random 2/3 of spaces in a massive, massive area. That's pretty "unstable."

Lightning-wasp tree… would the summons count against yours? Great question… if yes, it could actually be a dangerous situation if a summoned one turned on you. Yeah, I like that.

Iron Golem… yeah… not the best idea. How about a lava golem? That seem "unstable" enough? Or perhaps a gargoyle which is indestructible and immobile when placed in the light but mobile and attacking in the dark/shadows. It could be immune to physical damage but only mobile in the shadows or dark, including magical darkness. Anyone with illuminate could instantly immobilize it. It basically be a wall but a wall that could, in the right situation, come to life.

About the 50% question well, I wanted it to bottom out at 10% chance to turn at lvl 5 and then increasing with each turn it's in play (maybe 1-5% each turn based on stats).

As for Wild summon and the prodigy… I don't know yet. We'll give it some benefit as of yet undetermined. If people like the idea then I'm sure we can hash out the details on what benefit they should gain. I'm big on synergy…

One final point… you could make the summons "not care" if you're in the way of their abilities. Right now, I believe, the Hydra won't attack if you're in the way. If any of the "unstable summons" have an area effect ability then that would not be true for them. Increase the danger element...

[Shade]

I kinda think giving a small (maybe 1-3% chance) of having all summons appear hostile and targeting the summoner would be a good and flavorful balancing mechanism for an already powerful class. Without any further power increases.

[Mewtarthio]

Summons of your summons don't count as your summons for checking the summons cap.

Wait, that was horribly unclear, wasn't it?

Okay, so basically, when the game counts the number of wild summons you have to see if you're at your cap yet, it only counts the creatures that have you as their direct summoner. So, if you have a summoned creature with the Summon talent, those indirect summons will not count against you.

Besides, they're already plenty sadistic. After all, those wasps have their own chance to turn feral, and they'll probably be around longer than the tree...

(Oh, and as for that "What happens to the failure rate when they add a category point?" question: Infinite scaling. You can easily create a talent that asymptotically approaches a lower bound.)

[Delmuir]

Summons of your summons don't count as your summons for checking the summons cap.

Besides, they're already plenty sadistic. After all, those wasps have their own chance to turn feral, and they'll probably be around longer than the tree...

Hell yeah it would be. Twisted that is.

I think this would be awesome and I've been barking up this tree (no pun intended) for a while now. Maybe it could be my demon summoning mage idea or maybe a corrupted summoner or maybe just an additional tree for the summoner we already have. I don't care. I just love the idea.

I just think that the summoner is a flat character. Easy to use but kind of dull. You only have a couple of great summons and then the rest just act as cannon fodder while you wait for the good ones to come off of cool down. I think it would be cool to make them have affinities for one another so that you can use them in combinations.

The "Unstable summon" tree could do that, and I think it should. That's why I like the idea of a cold/freeze immune summon so that you could make the Rimebark interesting. I could build a whole strategy around using it and I'd love it! Sadly, there's no freeze/cold immune summon.

My other suggestion was just to change the wolf summon and make it freeze/cold immune but that didn't go anywhere… this idea, because the summons could turn against you (or ally with you if it's an enemy summoner) would prevent balance problems and would add more skill point sinks. You'd have more summons to choose from… crazy, twisted, awesome summons.

[The Revanchist]

I don't know that they'd turn to the enemy team, or from the enemy to yours. I think they should just go feral. Berserk, perhaps.

[Delmuir]

I don't know that they'd turn to the enemy team, or from the enemy to yours. I think they should just go feral. Berserk, perhaps.

I just like the idea that they should focus on the original summoner and his/her summons. Almost like they're pissed off at the summoner.

Perhaps not quite an ally but it'd be neat to fight a summoner and see his summons turn on him. I imagine that if they were to kill the summoner then they could revert to an enemy for you, if they last that long.

[The Revanchist]

Well... Assuming the Unstable Golem (maybe make him some Horror, instead? Fight alongside a Dream seed, or an Ooze? Or something less squicky.) has about ten turns when he turns, and a Global penalty of ~33%, that would give him about six turns to kill the very squishy summoner right next to him. And then turn back to you.

EDIT: Math was really wrong. A 33% reduction to ten is NOT 4...

[Delmuir]

Well... Assuming the Unstable Golem (maybe make him some Horror, instead? Fight alongside a Dream seed, or an Ooze? Or something less squicky.) has about ten turns when he turns, and a Global penalty of ~33%, that would give him about six turns to kill the very squishy summoner right next to him. And then turn back to you.

EDIT: Math was really wrong. A 33% reduction to ten is NOT 4...

Hmmmm… making the "turn" inevitable? That's a cool idea.

[The Revanchist]

Well... Assuming the Unstable Golem (maybe make him some Horror, instead? Fight alongside a Dream seed, or an Ooze? Or something less squicky.) has about ten turns when he turns, and a Global penalty of ~33%, that would give him about six turns to kill the very squishy summoner right next to him. And then turn back to you.

EDIT: Math was really wrong. A 33% reduction to ten is NOT 4...

Hmmmm… making the "turn" inevitable? That's a cool idea.

Not sure that's what I meant, but I'm far from opposed.

Perhaps, if the Summon fails to die before it "expires", you lose your hold on it? This would probably be nullified by the Summon Control, which could even be a reason to actually get it.

[Seian Verian]

I don't really like this idea. Why would anyone use abilities that have such high chances of killing them? I don't think there's any other ability in the game that has such a direct chance of completely - you over.

I guess the idea is sort of cool but I have difficulty imagining it being remotely viable in gameplay.

[Delmuir]

I'm not sure it really has that high a chance of killing you… it has a fifty percent chance upon summon, at lvl 1, but only ten percent at lvl 5. More so, a summon turning against you isn't necessarily instant death… it's just potentially dangerous.

However, your concern is not unwarranted. The summon would have to have a big benefit… my theory is that each of the unstable summons should provide a great synergy with one of your lesser summons (such as Rimebark and Golem) or have stand alone strength. They'd be desirable… worth the risk and that risk could contained based on how you use them.

You probably want to summon something first, as a buffer, and then the unstable summon. More so, you'd not want to summon it right next to you, if you could avoid it.

If that wasn't enough then just reduce the chance of it turning on you. This is all in the thought experiment stage. None of these suggestions are firm.

[HousePet]

Being attacked by summoned critters doesn't feel right for the summoner class.

[Grakor456]

Being attacked by summoned critters doesn't feel right for the summoner class.

QFT. Considering summoners are a wilder class, I always figured that the summons weren't enslaved, but willingly came in to aid the summoner in his defense of nature, so on so forth.

Also, this is a Rogue-like. Relying on things that have a chance of success (and worse, a chance of backfiring and harming you) is a decidedly bad idea. If something -could- eventually go wrong and result in your death, it inevitably will. I don't think any kind of "summons have a chance of turning against the summoner" would see serious use, however small the chance is.