Whole talent system rework

[Sradac]

...
talents for equipment proficiency mus be one-pointers: one should either have two-handed weapon proficiency (+100% danage)or not. no 5% increases.

Not sure if this makes any sense at all.

By this logic you're either a master at something or dont know it at all? Lets remove all levels from all talents then while we're at it.

This would be like if you learned how to hold a rifle in the real world, you are suddenly an expert sharpshooter. There's no improving your skill with that, you either cant do it at all or you do it perfect.

increments make 100% sense.

[The Revanchist]

This would be like if you learned how to hold a rifle in the real world, you are suddenly an expert sharpshooter. There's no improving your skill with that, you either cant do it at all or you do it perfect.

increments make 100% sense.

We could, in this proposed system, have it so that attaining "Armor" proficiency allows you to invest in specialized armor trees. Say, for Massive Armors (plate armor) we would have a proficiency to reduce the fatigue penalty, another to further raise the defense, another the armor hardiness... et cetera.

For the record, I think the proposal I've outlined is needlessly complex.

[Delmuir]

ToME is not a game on fighting, but rather on the build of a character with talents and luck (items, rewards, etc). What makes this game so interesting is the diversity of the potential build.

I would take some issue with this.

Yes, the diversity of the builds IS interesting but only in so much as it allows for differing styles of gameplay. Otherwise, it's a superficial distinction of no merit. That, is the real problem.

There's lots of "variety" in potential builds but very, very few of them give you any real chance to beat the game. On top of that, the gameplay is very similar for most of the builds… especially the ones that can win.

I think the theory you support is solid. I'm not yet sold on the execution. I think that there are probably only five really unique builds: paradox mage, archmage (which really only has two builds of note), stealth-melee characters, rush melee characters, and he summoner.

While I can't endorse the solution (it'd be a complete re-work of the game mechanics), I do think that more care should go into the "choices" that a character makes. Namely, I think skills should have direct synergy sort of like they did in the old Diablo 2. That would allow a character to "overpower" an otherwise weak skill and tailor his character to the style of gameplay that he/she might enjoy.

[The Revanchist]

I would take some issue with this.

There's lots of "variety" in potential builds but very, very few of them give you any real chance to beat the game. On top of that, the gameplay is very similar for most of the builds… especially the ones that can win.

I think the theory you support is solid. I'm not yet sold on the execution. I think that there are probably only five really unique builds: paradox mage, archmage (which really only has two builds of note), stealth-melee characters, rush melee characters, and he summoner.

Those are rather... restrictive categories. I'd give at least a few more. Maybe two or three "base" types.

While I can't endorse the solution (it'd be a complete re-work of the game mechanics), I do think that more care should go into the "choices" that a character makes. Namely, I think skills should have direct synergy sort of like they did in the old Diablo 2. That would allow a character to "overpower" an otherwise weak skill and tailor his character to the style of gameplay that he/she might enjoy.

This is more evident in some classes than others, I find. Ideally, though, any smart build should be able to beat the game. But what is a smart build?

This is less of a concern, but giving talents even wider-reaching synergies would make the Adventurer even more overpowered.

[HousePet]

Adventurer is not meant to be balanced.

[The Revanchist]

Adventurer is not meant to be balanced.

...was that all I wrote worth commenting on?

[HousePet]

You only wrote three lines and only one of them bothered me.

[Delmuir]

This is more evident in some classes than others, I find. Ideally, though, any smart build should be able to beat the game. But what is a smart build?

This is less of a concern, but giving talents even wider-reaching synergies would make the Adventurer even more overpowered.

"Smart build" is sort of my point. There aren't that many viable smart builds which leaves lots and lots of dumb builds. I'm not suggesting that every build should be viable, only that right now, too many builds aren't. It's unbalanced… exactly what we don't want.

As for the Adventurer mode well… I'm not of the opinion that we should be concerned with how overpowered that could be. You have to beat the game to unlock it anyway. Besides, you could always make it so that the Adventurer build only has abilities from classes (or categories, i.e. all mage classes are available if you beat the game with any mage) that you've beaten the game with.

[Sirrocco]

"Smart build" is sort of my point. There aren't that many viable smart builds which leaves lots and lots of dumb builds. I'm not suggesting that every build should be viable, only that right now, too many builds aren't. It's unbalanced… exactly what we don't want.

I don't think we need to dumb things down. All classes are viable in the hands of an appropriately skilled player, at least in normal, and I'd argue that the majority of them have at least a few builds that are pretty distinct from one another that are viable (in addition to the smaller variations). Some require more skill to play properly, and some are more powerful, and there is a degree of character-building skill that goes into making these things work well, but I tend to think that that's a good thing. Coming up with nifty ways to make the powers work together is one of the cooler parts of this game.

Now, it's true that there are certain skills that really aren't worth having, but that's the nature of the beast in any game as complex and often-changing as this one (good things), and is best fixed with little tweaks to individual skills, rather than sweeping alterations.

on the other hand, to refute the argument you were putting out before... you're ignoring archers altogether. Alchemists work just fine, and I wouldn't describe them as being either an archmage or a summoner. Mindslayers, wyrmics, and so forth play a strong hybrid ranged/melee, which you're ignoring altogether, with a number of interesting variations. I suppose that you could call Doomed "Summoners" or "Archmages" if you really wanted to stretch the point, but having your casting stat decay while you rest actually does matter to the feel of the thing.

Now, if the builds that you personally can win with are constrained... well, that's a different matter, and if you post on the Spoilers forum, perhaps we can help you. I personally haven't won yet, but that's honestly more because the game lasts longer than I can maintain interest than anything else.

[Delmuir]

I don't think we need to dumb things down. All classes are viable in the hands of an appropriately skilled player, at least in normal, and I'd argue that the majority of them have at least a few builds that are pretty distinct from one another that are viable (in addition to the smaller variations). Some require more skill to play properly, and some are more powerful, and there is a degree of character-building skill that goes into making these things work well, but I tend to think that that's a good thing. Coming up with nifty ways to make the powers work together is one of the cooler parts of this game.

Now, if the builds that you personally can win with are constrained... well, that's a different matter, and if you post on the Spoilers forum, perhaps we can help you. I personally haven't won yet, but that's honestly more because the game lasts longer than I can maintain interest than anything else.

What a condescending reply, given that I have won the game… with multiple different builds. However, I'll address this sans hostility.

It's not a question of dumbing things down. It's a question of "gameplay" diversity.

What's the difference between two skills on different characters (or the same for that face) that do essentially the same thing, in terms of gameplay? Nothing, by definition.

What you call "smart" play isn't smart so much as it's tedious. Casting magic eye and inching your way around corners… hit and run tactics or whatever cycle of actions a particular build has. Just because you call the skill something different doesn't make it play any differently.

Tome 4 does a lot really well. I'm quite impressed with it. However, diversity of gameplay is really where the excitement is (and in this case, missing). Why? Because of your accurate assessment of figuring out how skills work together. That's already done quite well and I'm not suggesting it be diminished or dumbed down.

A simple example of this is the Cursed… it's the simplest melee character, in my opinion, in terms of gameplay. Mostly passive skills and so it can be pretty "dumb" to play. Obviously the start is brutal but that's not my concern. The gameplay is ultimately identical to what it is for most other characters: hit and run, in this case using predator.

Compare that to an archmage using manashield and a bunch of shield runes with arcane/aether. I can ignore status effects entirely and basically tank everyone through the last bosses… and I do. The characters entire gameplay is predicated on keeping the Manashield up and tanking. It's as close to hack and slash as this game gets.

Then you have the Summoner, which is an attrition character. Kind of dull but good for new users. Just spam summons… that's a very different type of gameplay. Unfortunately, it's dull but that's another problem...

What most classes and builds have in common is this: show up, unload, get out, repeat or mine resource (hate, vim, etc.), show up, unload, run. Very few characters have any real strategic element beyond hit and run. There's no tradeoff.

Manashield is a great spell because it has a tradeoff, not because it's overpowered. The tradeoff isn't between Manashield and and another skill but between runes and infusions. One can micromanage the Manashield (hate it) or use runes to survive cool downs, status effects, etc. once your mana is full. What that produces it two entirely different sets of gameplay options: hit and run versus hack and slash with the same skill, based on your other choices.

Most other characters don't have much of a choice. There are very few builds that have true strategic choices (such as the ability to overpower an otherwise weak skill, as I noted earlier) that can affect gameplay. They generally range from tedious to extremely tedious (what you're calling "smart").

There's no reason you can't have characters who NEED to be in the battle. A character that can't survive outside of battle. Cursed is the best example but honestly not committed enough to the idea. Ultimately, playing it is just like playing most melee characters. It shouldn't be. A cursed should be, if one were to exaggerate it for the purposes of changing gameplay, like the movie "Crank." Just constantly rushing from one battle to the next… never resting, never auto-exploring, never checking every last corner…

Playing a Cursed could be a frantic, tense, nerve-wracking race… instead, it isn't. Imagine if you didn't heal naturally or even suffered perma-lifedrain? Imagine if your skills over-powered to insane levels when surrounded by numerous enemies in addition to taking damage, etc? That last one would prevent enemies from becoming too powerful as they always only face one enemy. Imagine big life drain off of hits. That would make getting to the enemy critical. The game would be a - SPRINT…. getting into battles super weak, always on the verge of death and then going all "Popeye" on huge mobs or even bosses.

Currently, you're usually tapped out at the end of a battle and strong at the start… with a Cursed, you'd enter weak, race to battle, and finish all 'roided out, then race again. Time would be your biggest enemy. That would be a legitimate gameplay change. Not smarter or dumber, just the exact opposite style of many other characters.