Assorted Class ideas

[Fayd]

Hello, after getting back into ToME for a while, i had some sort of miscellaneous thoughts about classes and decided to turn them into suggestions.

1. Necromancers, for Undead characters. I think making a fun alternative option to the Lich for undead characters could be quite interesting. Ghouls could become Ghoul-lords or Ghoulkings or something like that, and Skeletons become powerful Wights. Each one should, like Lich, give access to a new pool of talents that operate on a different resource. Perhaps Ghoul-lords operate on Vim (consuming life, endless hunger, the like) and Wights operate on...Psi? Paradox? Hate? to be honest with them I'm not terribly sure.

2. Tonally, I really find it odd that Psiblades operates on Equilibrium. I understand why it was done, but every time the tonal dissonance confuses me...

3. Along the vein of Psiblades, perhaps psi-classes could get a skill tree dedicated to advanced psiblade techniques... new blade shapes, perhaps, augmenting blades with effect like shield-phasing or the like... Dunno.

4. Something that could be really helpful would be a "class dossier" area, or some more details bout how classes operate so we can more easily see synergies. Nothing to build for us, but it can sometimes be easy to miss how talents interact in their most powerful ways.

5. Speaking of Anthoril, there was some not insignificant debate last night about how everything the Anthoril does, the Archmage does better... And I can sort of see their point. Anthoril have a really limited toolbox, and from what I understand their range is a significant weak point. A powerful toolbox in the right build, but limited in options. Perhaps adding a few trees may not be a bad idea. Perhaps an Advanced Light and Advanced Shadow tree? Also, they are casters without a sustained damage penetration option for their chosen element. (DISREGARD,left for posterity: Or making it so Positive and Negative energy are not affected by fatigue (it's sort of Divine Magic... sort of).)
Regardless, this is sort of a random smattering of ideas and it's likely not all (or any) are even good, but I just thought to share.

[PureQuestion]

Positive and Negative are affected by fatigue when using the abilities that give more, so fatigue doesn't hurt them much, and in some ways helps them.

[Fayd]

Ah, good point! Consider that struck.

EDIT: You know, enabling the Strikethrough BBCode option would be really nice. Where would be the place to suggest that?

[Zonk]

Positive and Negative are affected by fatigue when using the abilities that give more, so fatigue doesn't hurt them much, and in some ways helps them.

Uh, wouldn't this be a bug of sorts?


On the OP:


1. The fact that Undead don't get anything special for going Necromancer is a bit odd, I agree. Skeletons and Wights are too different conceptually to tie them though, and I think Skeletons are powerful enough that giving them extra benefit for being a Necro might be...dunno, weird.

2. Agree.

3. Agree, and I also think more of a chance to get psionic talents in game would be nice.

4. Think this was suggested in the past, to have mini guides or even class-specific ingame tutorials. Would be lots of work likely but it's a great idea!

5. Not too familiar with Anorithils or Pallies, but it was my understanding(likely wrong) that the first are meant to be mostly about critting, and the second all about tanking. I do think there were some suggested proposals to both classes though, including giving Paladins a new unlockable tree,

[PureQuestion]

Uh, wouldn't this be a bug of sorts?

Nope! Fatigue is a cost multiplier. Negative costs are still costs

[Zonk]

Uh, wouldn't this be a bug of sorts?

Nope! Fatigue is a cost multiplier. Negative costs are still costs

Well it's not a mathematical bug, I mean in the 'is this intended?' way

A negative cost isn't actually a cost, it's like...a gift you get for using the talent?

Which yeah, it's how Celestials work mechanically, but it seems oddd to me that Anorithils and Paladins would find it easier to 'charge up' by using the heaviest armor available, which is why I mentioned it.

'Historical' trivia: once upon a time you could get negative fatigue(through Feathersteel only IIRC) and that actually made talent costs go below the base - very noticeable for mana as the effect is doubled, so -20% fatigue resulted in 60% mana cost spells!

[Peony]

Can't comment on 1, as I haven't really played necromancers. Or undead, really.

For 2 I think the problem is that they're called psiblades and that psi powers exist. The rest of the tree is nature themed. Giving psi a separate tree as per 3 might help, if it were distinct enough. Doomed already have gestures, after all.

4 sounds like it could be helpful, but I'm not quite sure what you mean. Suggestions how how the class is expected to play?

And 5 doesn't really shock me. Archmage seems to have so many trees available it's hardly surprising they can comfortably cover what some other classes can do.

[Faeryan]

Don't have much to say on the others but #1 ideally sounds really sweet. It would give a new spark in the old class.

Why not broaden the whole thing a bit and give each race a favored class they would get little bonuses with.
Halfling Rogue, dwarf bulwark, higher Archmage etc.

[The Revanchist]

Don't have much to say on the others but #1 ideally sounds really sweet. It would give a new spark in the old class.

Why not broaden the whole thing a bit and give each race a favored class they would get little bonuses with.
Halfling Rogue, dwarf bulwark, higher Archmage etc.

This has been suggested. To mixed results.

Pay no attention to the author of that thread... It is inconsequential, really.

[Faeryan]

This has been suggested. To mixed results.

Pay no attention to the author of that thread... It is inconsequential, really.

I'm bad at English and even worse with proverbs. What was that saying that said something about likeness of certain types of minds?

[Seian Verian]

I love the idea of giving other classes their own "apotheosis".

[lukep]

Re: Anorithils

They are set apart from Archmages by Corona. With Hymn of Moonlight active and high crit rate, they can get 7 crits in a turn giving 42 corona projectiles. With good positioning in a hallway all of them can hit your target for a total of 3000 damage per turn (before resists, +dam% etc), just from a pair of sustains. That's an ideal situation, but half of that on one target is not unusual by endgame.

Shadow Simulacrum is another good talent that sets them apart from Archmages. It lets them farm adventurers (and kill rares) very easily as the stronger the target, the stronger the simulacrum.

[Sirrocco]

Re: Anorothils - It's also the case that, as much of their attack power in endgame is passive, they can much more readily afford to spend turns in combat doing things like heals, shields, and condition removal (hello, Light tree).

[Fayd]

The thought, so far as I remember, was that even with this burst and ability to heal, Archmages are still better at that role.

I cannot testify to the truth or falsity of it, but that was the argument.

[donkatsu]

Archmages have better heals, damage shields, mobility, and in the early game, higher damage. Anorithils have more damage in the lategame, and a really diverse toolbox. In addition to being able to stun and blind like Archmages, they also have access to a confuse that can be made to last over 20 turns, an instant silence that can also be made permanent, immunity to projectiles, massive instant burst damage, and they're one of only three classes that can summon clones of enemies which is just an absolute godsend against Nightmare rares. They're not like, 5 classes in one like Archmages are, so not a *whole* lot of build choices, but they don't have any one category that they're forced to take nor do they have an overabundance of either class or generic points. There are definitely classes that are worse off. And they may lack a sustained damage penetration option, but that just puts them in the same boat as alchemists, corruptors and paradox mages, ie over half of the spellcasters in the game.

Also regarding fatigue and positive/negative energy, it still hurts them more than it helps. Anorithils don't care how much they charge up, because they never need positive energy, and their talent that refills their negative energy, refills to full anyway. For Sun Paladins, assuming their positive and negative costs are affected equally, it's basically equivalent to having a lower max positive energy pool, which is clearly not a good thing.