Taking a Look At Backup Guardians

[Davion Fuxa]

So recently while playing the game through the Backup Guardians again, I was sort of noticing that the difficulty between them all is a little lopsided and sort of lacklustre for the rewarding experience they all give. Some are just overly easy to fight while a few are hell incarnate. It might also be interesting if we relooked a bit about how those backup guardians came to work. Note that this discussion includes The Abomination from the Dwarven Starter Dungeons but I haven't actually played against that one so I'll leave that to discussion by others.

Here's some thoughts, first on those I think that are fine more or less:

Aluin, the Cursed Sun Paladin - Possibly the deadliest of the Backup Guardians, Aluin's ability to close the gap and harass your character heavily with his array of talents. Might be perhaps overwhelming even for fairly prepared players; I know he gave me a little trouble. Personally though I think this Backup Guardian is fine as is and nothing should change regarding him - one tough one in the lot isn't a bad thing.

Kor's Fury, Vengeful Shade - Kor's Fury provides a lot of debuffs and mixes them with some offensive spells. Potentially deadly if you neglected your spell save, extremely annoying if you didn't. Fairly adequate for a Boss, he can cause some real pain to the unprepared while prepared players can take him well enough; no change is probably warranted.

Massok, Scarred Warrior - Massok comes off as the best Backup Guardian to keep within Melee Range, and the most surprising in the wallop he can pack with Massive Blow. Players caught off guard will probably witness a nasty death, I know I was promptly concerned when he did 80% of my health in one swing. More or less if players are careful though they shouldn't have too much trouble.

For the first listed three Guardians there really isn't much issue with them providing some sort of challenge - they aren't just nice experience snackbites to eat. Problem is that they are the odd Guardians out that prove a justifiable challenge to kill.

Continuing on with some thoughts on some of the others; starting with the spellcasters:

Spellblaze Simulacrum, Crystalline Entity - Ridiculously easy, the Spellblaze Simulacrum lacks in killing power and probably isn't helping itself using Phase Door 1 in most cases; let alone being seemingly immobile. This boss could probably use a little bit of a rework on talents and approach to killing players as right now he's just tasty experience.

Pale Drake, Skeletal Archmage - Not as horribly incapable as the Spellblaze Simulacrum, Pale Drake has some decent talents; especially worthy of alarm if you haven't built up any fire resistance for his fire attacks. However, his overuse of Phase Door can really hinder his ability to hamper his damage output on the player and make it a lot easier to fight him.

Personally I don't think having a couple full on spellcaster Backup Guardians is a bad idea, but their defense mechanisms really don't help make them all that frightening. In Pale Drake's case I might suggest removing the Phase Door from Runes and his spell list or changing it to Phase Door 4/Controlled Phase Door Rune, and change it so that he has a more 'stand, fight, and chase' approach to combat. Maybe have it so defensively he pulls for Damage Shields to keep fighting, and comes with a knockback ability. Spellblaze Simulacrum I think just needs a total redesign.

There is also of course some thoughts to be had about those enemies which are specific to something important:

Lithfengel, Quest Advancement Enemy (No link in Wiki for Him to refer to) - Kind of laughably easy to be honest. I would support this enemy getting a slight boost in power so he can feel like more of a threat. As he is now he's just something to roll over and take experience from before going back to Tannen. I wouldn't support him getting buffed to Aluin's level since you sort of need to kill him to make the Farportal, but I expect some sort of challenge so he might actually be somewhat threatening if a player wasn't careful with him.

Corrupted Sandworm, Worm Bile holder - Again, laughably easy. This backup guardian also gets the 'most annoying to find' tacked on him as well since with the alternate dungeon he could be a vast difference away from the entrance. Much like Lithfengel he's a pushover and just something to roll over and take experience with the Worm Bile from. I actually would support its difficulty being pushed up to Aluin's level due to how valuable a reward it is to kill him, though just making him stand out a bit more in difficulty would be an improvement. Only thing to note is that it looks like he has Swallow - that might be something to remove if it does what I think it does...

Won't comment too much on how to improve these ones as I'm not entirely sure what their attack strategy is suppose to be for them. Maybe someone else has some ideas.

Finally there is the last two Backup Guardians of note:

Snaproot, Scorched Treant - Lots of hitpoints but not a whole lot else is really noticeable when fighting this Treant. You meet him and either plow through him, or you whittle him down until he dies. One of the few Guardians which you can pound with status ailments like it is no one's business to great effect since he'll survival so long that you'll see them hit him somewhat (just no Stuns). He's really too much of a marshmellow in combat - just soaking up a lot of damage and then keeling over.

Nimisil, Luminescent Spider - I assume that this is suppose to be an Anorithil type boss? Nimisil comes off as really weak regardless, failing to do a whole lot of damage or causing any sort of concern. Maybe a few abilities like Mind Blast or some of the Glyphs or Circles from the Anorithil Tree should make a showing.

Not sure what Snaproots goal is life is suppose to be, but perhaps it is suppose to be that he is durable? Maybe he should get more healing effects so that he takes forever to kill (or perhaps is not killable?). Nimisil just lacks in capability to really do much and really just needs improved capability to either throw the character off balance or do damage. If it gets either of those then it becomes more of a threat.

In any case I think the majority of the Backup Guardians could use a bit of improvement so that the risk for killing them sort of meets up with the reward for facing them.

[Grakor456]

I personally think Pale Drake is already rather threatening and had trouble with him on a couple of my characters. At the very least, he's already stronger than your typical dungeon boss, with his high fire damage and second life.

[Delmuir]

My biggest problem with the backup guardians is that occasionally I can't find them… namely the one in the Elven ruins and Troll Forest.

That being said, the only one that I ever have problems with is the one in Daikara. He's the only one that's even killed a mage of mine…

[Mewtarthio]

Pale Drake gets an entire lore series dedicated to him, so I think he should be terrifying to encounter. One problem with him is that Dreadfell has so many floors that a player who's not been spoiled in advance will have a lot of trouble finding him. I'd be in favor of making something more drastic happen to Dreadfell to make him more obvious. Perhaps, for instance, a bunch of holes (a la Horror Maze) could open up on Dreadfell 1, leading to a secret "basement" where Pale Drake waits. Or maybe force him to use a unique talent that teleports him right next to the player.

[SageAcrin]

Seconding the "Pale Drake is fine", I have had multiple near deaths/one death IIRC to him on various runs. He's just very variable based on your character you're running.

Snaproot can at least burst quite solid damage now; Getting sloppy can get you killed, at least... maybe he could use Rush so he can stay on top of the classes more vulnerable to that. Corrupted Sandworm could use a minor buff(maybe something like Venom Drake talents? I'd suggest Corruption but that actively conflicts with his Equi talents.), as could Nimisil(Maybe a few Circles including the Silence one, that would be a good way to make it stand out more.).

Spellblaze Simulacrum probably needs the most help; Upping his Magic to 60 would help make up for his lack of a staff, and giving him some support talents would make him more interesting. I suggest giving him Time Shield/Arcane Reconstruction/Pulverizing Auger at the same levels of the rest of his spells.

Lithfengel is just weird. I agree he needs a buff but he has just enough of a core set of abilities so that I'm not actually sure which way a buff should go. Maybe just something basic like giving him a decent Blood Spray/Blood Boil/Drain, rather than boosting his physical end(which is already okay in a slugfest way, and which could easily go out of control thanks to Mortal Terror if buffed too heavily)?

[Faeryan]

Funny you should say Aluin is hard. For me he seems rather easy.

My top 3 badasses would be these:
1) Massok, that one shot is nasty.
2) Pale Drake, his tele and rather smart splashing makes this one both one of the toughest but also one of the most entertaining fights.
3) Kor's Fury, if he gets a jump on you and you can't properly detect invisible he'll prove a rather nice fight.

Other than those the backup guardians are laughably easy.
I wouldn't mind something being done to them. How about an entourage of equal level monsters inhabiting the level? It's not like the added xp bump would make the game considerably easier, plus Ironroot with his ent entourage would look awesome. Or was it Snaproot or whatever.

[donkatsu]

Maybe Aluin can do something to melee characters, but at range he's pretty dang susceptible to Rod of Spydric Poison, just like every other melee boss lacking in poison/pin immunity.

[Robsoie]

The problem with balancing enemies is that "oh that guy is easy" and "oh that guy is too hard" is completely dependant on which race/class combo you're using, which items you have on your character while preparing for that specific fight etc...

If i take Mayfair "Funny you should say Aluin is hard. For me he seems rather easy."
The last time i fought Aluin was with a Skeleton Marauder that utterly annihilated Aluin in a few turns.
So if i take what i just experienced, would that mean that Aluin is too easy ?

No, it's simply that Marauders at that level are really scary strong especially when you have good equipment.

I had a Berserker in the past that reached Aluin, and despite he wasn't bad at all, Aluin proved simply way too strong, regenerating more health that i could damage him and hitting too hard for my own heal/regen to follow without having to teleport away to save my life.

So it's important when trying to balance enemies to think that race/classes are absolutely not equal.
In the example i gave, buffing Aluin to give a big challenge to the Marauder will simply make him frustratingly unbeatable by many other classes at the level you are when you're starting to fight the backup guardians to make a levelup or two.

[Faeryan]

Robsoie, My opinion on Aluin is based on winning the game on 5 class archetypes, and on top of that the chars I haven't managed to win but have beaten Aluin.

Your point is valid though. Instead of saying Aluin is easy I should have worded my statement a bit differently. So, here goes: "Usually whenever I met Aluin he's a level or few above me, butt I've never found him that hard on different race/class combos I play with."

[Davion Fuxa]

It's important to note that I am mostly referring to the potential that the Backup Guardians posses in relation to players character combos, gameplay experience, items found, etc. I myself have never had a problem with Kor's Fury, but I recognize that he 'CAN' be a threat to someone given the right conditions as Mayfair pointed out. Recently I read someone had problems with Aluin and in a battle recently with the Higher Anorithil I'm running I experienced his capabilities when used in the right order as well so I take that into account that he could bring the hurt.

As for Pale Drake, I'll note again I haven't found him horrible incapable; it is just that his use of the random Phase Door proves his undoing too much. Perhaps I need to face him another time though (I have another character that is near the Backup Guardians for a round 3)

For changing the areas that the Backup Guardians appear in (or at least for some of the Guardians) I'd be for that. New Enemies or additional areas could do well to make weaker Guardians more interesting or more threatening.

[Delmuir]

... I'd be in favor of making something more drastic happen to Dreadfell to make him more obvious. Perhaps, for instance, a bunch of holes (a la Horror Maze) could open up on Dreadfell 1, leading to a secret "basement" where Pale Drake waits.

I actually think this is a great, great idea but I want to expound on it.

Perhaps all of the backup guardians should, instead of randomly appearing in the level, generate a fairly obvious gateway (something that you can auto explore to) to a mini-level.

You could reduce the experience from the boss itself and populate the small level with some complimentary unique enemies. It would give a chance for a few high-level (I'd say tier 4-5) drops and some added complications/difficulty. Right now, the guardians are sometimes hard to find but often relatively easy for the experience.

I'm quite in favor of buffing the Corrupted Sandworm as his reward is so huge. I'd give him the ability to summon unique sand worm enemies or something like that.

All in all, I'd love to see a small collection of truly unique enemies that are seen nowhere else in the game, cause unique problems such as having overpowered skills that are rarely used or have odd immunities. I don't know, just a starting point for discussion.

The only exception I would make is for Lithfengel as you need to be able to kill him in order to get back to the East so I'm fine leaving him fairly easy and with no sub-dungeon.

Lastly, why not make Pale Drake, with all of his lore, an achievement? Make him only appear once you've killed all of the other backup guardians. Once you do so, have the game make an announcement like "a great evil has appeared" or whatever. Then buff him up, give him some truly unique enemies to accompany him.

Essentially, you could keep the total experience the same as it is now but make the challenge greater. Make it worthwhile by adding some high-end drops. Perhaps make fifteen or so hyper-specialized uniques and have one drop in each mini-dungeon/guardian challenge. Not everyone would be guaranteed to drop.

[HousePet]

An extra floor is an interesting idea.
It would be good if these bosses had an entourage to make them more challanging.
Also the material level for the loot needs to be higher.

[The Revanchist]

Time to speculate on evil entourages then? What fun...

[Davion Fuxa]

Maybe Aluin, Kor's Fury, and Massok could remain as they are. They already prove challenging enough by themselves and they fit well being loners.

The Corrupted Sandworm devoured all the other sandworms - or so his description says. If so then he should remain a loner but just get his ability to kill people increased to be more threatening. Lithfengel also sort of indicates that everything around him is dead with the prompt message you get upon entering the last instance of Reknor and should probably also be left as a loner.

The others though could probably all be up for having improvement with entourages or new dungeons or what not:

The other discussion thread I started about splitting that game into Part 1 & Part 2 has started to talk about the idea that the Master begin sending undead minions through the countryside of Maj'Eyal. If that plotline gets followed, maybe Pale Drake will spawn undead patrols as well as have an entourage with him. Perhaps he would appear in a new instance rather then new enemies being made to populate the Dreadfall you already explored for people looking to kill everything.

Spellblaze Simulacrum could perhaps have the ability to spawn crystals on top of the player and get an entourage that way. This would also perhaps do well to make up for its currently easy difficulty.

Snaproot and Nimisil I have no real thoughts on. Perhaps Snaproot could turn trees around the player into Treants that make dealing with him more difficult - or take forever as you kill all the trees on the map. Nimisil could perhaps be changed to have a special attack that throws you into her Spider Hole, and to get out you would have to fight Light Enemies and Dark Enemies.

[Darulio]

Corrupted Sandworm, Worm Bile holder -


Only thing to note is that it looks like he has Swallow - that might be something to remove if it does what I think it does...

Swallow counts as an instadeath, i'm fairly sure, which the player is immune to.

Other than that I support the Sand Wyrm being buffed, along with Snaproot. I don't know about pale drake, though, he's a pretty interesting fight.