Psionic Disruption

[The Revanchist]

First off... Has anyone else tried an Equilibrium/Vim build? I don't imagine it ends well, and that's a good thing. It makes sense. Nature gifts and Corruptions should not mix.

What I propose is a similar system for Psionic and Hate abilities. Considering they're both "Mind powers", it makes sense. The description for Afflicted is "Cursed with mental powers beyond their full control." Why then, can a Psionic, who uses their mind, function unimpeded with such hatred suffused into them?

In one manner or another, I believe it should "break" their focus. Whether by decreasing the regeneration of Psi energy, or reducing the power, or drastically increasing the cost... Whatever works, really.

[loimprevisto]

Yeah, I had a great idea for an adventurer build with nature and vim. Imagine my surprise...

I kind of like the idea of hate and psi being incompatible, with the cost of the psi talent being affected by the current hate level.

Anyone else?

[Grakor456]

I think this would be a bit negative on the gameplay side of things. Most Afflicted are probably going to go Anti-magic, and the Zigur-reward for temporal explorers is a psionic tree. The Vim/Equilibrium conflict really only matters in a small handful of cases, mostly with Defilers picking up Harmony.

Really, I think Hate and Psi works better than you might think. They are both mind powers, after all. One taps into primal emotion and the other into cold rational thinking, but who is to say that it's impossible to balance those?

[The Revanchist]

Finally!

Grakor456: That is indeed true, and my whole premise was on the fact that they were both mind powers. We could probably settle on something interesting enough.

Instead of just messing with each other in really mean, incompatible ways, perhaps having Hate abilities would boost the power (and cost) of Psi abilities. Representing, maybe, their increased mental power, but also the concentration required to keep it in check?

As for the Hate talents, as affected by Psi... I don't know.

[Sirrocco]

One way would be quantity of Hate. As your hate bar goes up, you get a multiplier to both psi cost of all psi powers, and effective mindpower for all psi powers. That could be cool - although the overall effects would be minimal except on weird adventurer builds.

[The Revanchist]

That would be cool. I think that works nicely.

What else would it be for? Moreover, what exactly is the purpose of Equilibrium and Vim interaction?

Edit. I don't want to waste a reply on laughing. Because that wouldn't be funny. I like the response, though... Flavour was indeed my primary reason for suggesting.

[HousePet]

Flavour.

[Zonk]

Not a fan of Hate hindering Psi.

The fact that Cursed powers are well, a 'curse' and not the result of mental discipline does not NECESSARILY imply they would make it harder to use regular psionics.
And if it did, an argument could be made for it hindering most other energies too (mana does take focus - even if of a different kind, all that hate isn't in focus with nature and so on..).
It also doesn't seem to be too thematic for Doomed, who unlike Cursed seem to be much more...'willing' in their affliction.


In fact I'm already not a fan of psionics being affected by Fatigue. I get why it works like that balance-wise, but it seems odd heavy armor hinders psionics which is like, mental by definition(even if a few gestures are sometimes required)and not Vim which IS magic even if 'corrupted' one.

[Mewtarthio]

In fact I'm already not a fan of psionics being affected by Fatigue. I get why it works like that balance-wise, but it seems odd heavy armor hinders psionics which is like, mental by definition(even if a few gestures are sometimes required)and not Vim which IS magic even if 'corrupted' one.

Fatigue is just that: Physical exhaustion caused by, for instance, running around all day in heavy armor. The fatigue penalties have nothing to do with complex gestures or a mystical incompatibility between magic and armor, as is the case in other settings. In ToME, casters eschew armor because being tired, achey, and sweaty makes it hard to focus on spellcasting, and that applies equally to mana and psi. Vim, by contrast, is powered by stolen life force; the caster's focus is irrelevant.

[Zonk]

Fatigue is just that: Physical exhaustion caused by, for instance, running around all day in heavy armor. The fatigue penalties have nothing to do with complex gestures or a mystical incompatibility between magic and armor, as is the case in other settings. In ToME, casters eschew armor because being tired, achey, and sweaty makes it hard to focus on spellcasting, and that applies equally to mana and psi. Vim, by contrast, is powered by stolen life force; the caster's focus is irrelevant.

(hopefully this discussion isn't derailing the thread btw)

That's an interesting argument (I definetely was not thinking of a 'mystical incompatibility' - again, only movement/gesturing) but I think it falls flat because if the idea was really that 'armor makes you tired, being tired makes using even non-stamina resources harder', well, the current portrayal just doesn't work like that.

Something like your idea IMHO that would feature everyone having a stamina bar that is reduced just for fighting(bump attacks too) and moving, and when it gets below a certain %, you get penalties to using even non-stamina resources. Which is an interesting system, maybe, but definetely not something I'm saying we should see in ToME!

The way it works *now* - you get immediate fatigue resource modifiers even if you put the armor on too little ago to be really tired, and they're indipendent of your stamina - makes me think that the reasoning is much closer to my own, and the idea is that heavy armor=takes more effort to perform actions that require movement.

Which makes sense to me. Also, I seem to remember Mana getting DOUBLE the fatigue penalty, though that may have been changed some time ago, perhaps.
I'm actually surprised there don't seem to be +fatigue debuffs, by the way - would make sense.

Also, going with your Vim argument for a moment - yes, the life force is stolen, but you still have to focus it yourself after all or it wouldn't do anything. Which might require movement or gestures, even if less so than regular magic.

Consider psionic energy, for a Mindslayer at least - most of their psionic energy is 'taken' from the environment or enemy attacks, but they are focusing it themselves. And they take full fatigue.


Equilibium on the other hand is fully exempted, yet likely requires a good bit of concentration, although perhaps no complex gesturing/movement.
Hate, on the other hand, is affected (IIRC), which I also feel is a bit odd.te

Not really saying the current system *should* be changed, although it does feel like it's more about balance than 'making sense' to me (not necessarily a bad thing in a game).
If it was me, I'd perhaps have psi/hate/equilibrium/vim at half fatigue effect rather than none or full.

One way would be quantity of Hate. As your hate bar goes up, you get a multiplier to both psi cost of all psi powers, and effective mindpower for all psi powers. That could be cool - although the overall effects would be minimal except on weird adventurer builds.

So basically make hate affect the power of psionics talents like it affects that of Cursed(but not Doomed, for some reason) talents? That's...interesting, in a way.
Although IMHO it might make more sense to first *consider* making Doomed scale off current hate, like Cursed.

[TheRani]

How about we Not nerf Doomed and Cursed for the sake of flavor? Hate management is difficult enough a thing, and they suffer enough when it's low already. Less damage, low health regen, abilities give less benefit in general, etc. Why in the world should we also suffer in different ways when we manage to keep it reasonably high?

[Sirrocco]

My idea was intended to not be particularly a source of suffering. Yeah, it makes psi powers cost more for the Afflicted, but it also makes them more powerful. The idea would be to balance the two effects so that they were about even.