Making the Breeding Pits Less Disgusting

[cttw]

The threat to report this to Valve is the saddest thing I've ever seen on a game forum, and that is saying a lot.

Having said that, I'm not against a warning. Is anyone?

Orders, insults, threats, orc anatomy. What a thread.

[SageAcrin]

You can add "childish personal attacks" to that list, as well, unless you want to specify why disallowing 10 year olds to see descriptions of graphic nightmare-fuel without warning is pathetic.

I'm waiting.

[Davion Fuxa]

I think I already covered my feelings in a past post about a warning:

I think Melinda being carved up like a turkey with religious symbols and then dripping blood in the escape, or Celia's use of Necromancy in regards to her pregnancy, or just the generally suggestive genocide and slaughter of the four orc encampments, general witchcraft and racial tendencies found in the main continent of Maj'Eyal, and whatever else all already entail a potential warning perhaps being made. Really one could make an argument that what is feature in ToME is on par with say Diablo or Doom if you really want.

I'd say just slap the Mature Content warning on the game; the removal or change of the Orc Breeding Pits isn't going to stop the need for it if it is desired.

If anything a Warning should be put on regardless of what comes out of this discussion in relation to the Orc Breeding Pits. The game warrants it.

If we want to talk about 'sanitizing the Orc Breeding Pits' after said warnings are put on the game for other reasons - namely the disgust factor which is the main reason this thread probably got started, I'm all for that too.

[darkgod]

I've now removed the pits.

I am sorry if this derailed like that. The zone was never meant to *upset* people. Only to make them reflect on their ingame choices.
I understand it does, and you people have to understand it was not intended.

Now it's gone and will later be replaced by a less scandalous one.

Can we stop with the personal attacks on all sides please?

This is a game; it's a thing I've spent untold countless hours on to make people have fun. Can we now get back to having fun? Please.

[SageAcrin]

My apologies.

Honestly, it makes me a bit sad that it came to this; I would have liked to have seen a compromise that could have worked for everyone.

Maybe it doesn't exist but I'm crazy like that.

I'm probably going to take the rest of the day off from the forums/ToMEchat anyways; I get into anger cycles when I get angry, due to anger triggering asthma/migraines, which leads to more anger/frustration, which leads to more illness... etc.

I won't be very useful in a discussion with people today anyways due to that. However, I figure actually stating this (instead of leaving in an immature silent huff) is better than not.

But I am sorry that I got angry about this; Developers ignoring feedback (And in turn, making a game be so much less awesome than it can be, for as many people as it can be.) is a personal button, and one I guess I mistook this case for.

[Faeryan]

Too bad it's gone. I often found the most interesting loot there.
Any chance of getting the orc youngster icons to be picked for custom icon? I mean all the three or four adolescent orc icons that appear in the pits. If not now then at least when the orc campaign goes live? Pretty please? Those orcs are adorable, except that one that has it's weener showing, he's just wacky.

[Graziel]

ive been watching this thread since beginning and all i can say in the end that ill miss breeding pits, only things that i agree that are a bit disgusting were mothers flavour texts and killing orc babies, that zone had one of best written lores in game and making me really sad for orcs, im disappointed that from really good thread about what to change in pits it turned to be accusation thread

tl;dr
-this thread made me sad, will miss breeding pits

[Mewtarthio]

...That reference wasn't intended at all? Was that just an unfortunate language barrier thing?

[Razakai]

A slight shame, but probably for the best in the long run. I'm sure the replacement will be excellent.

[darkgod]

Obviously it was not, whom do you take me for ?

This thread makes me sad, I miss being trusted as a good person.

Can we now all stop please?

[evouga]

Might not be a bad idea to lock the thread.

[Mewtarthio]

Obviously it was not, whom do you take me for ?

Geez, I'm sorry. To a native English speaker, that "final solution" looked like an obvious reference, particularly given the context. I'm sorry I jumped to conclusions there. I've never thought you were a bad person, and I love your game and its lore. Even if the Breeding Pits are gone forever, I hope we can get the story of the orcs' terrible desperation (in randomly-dropped lore, if nothing else).

[StelasEldrasia]

I
I am sorry if this derailed like that. The zone was never meant to *upset* people. Only to make them reflect on their ingame choices.
I understand it does, and you people have to understand it was not intended.

Thanks. My problem was never with the zone or the moral choice behind it, just the unfortunate reference out of the blue, and I seriously appreciate action this quick on it. I love the game and I just don't want to see repercussions coming to it from a bad choice of wording.

[Grey]

So when the author breaks into my house through a window that he probably won't pay for, and I feel his heavy breath on my neck as he tries to create some morally ambiguous gray area and trick me into taking the whole thing seriously, I feel naturally resistant.

Hah! Just wait till the steamtech campaign - giant steamtech animals will make you feel emotions!

If that is the author's intention anyway. I suspect that, like us, he had no ulterior motives. Just a lot of free time and a text editor.

Yes, very true. I should probably get a hobby ;)

[ProfessorCirno]

For what it is worth DarkGod, I and so far all the goons responding on the SA thread trust you as being a good person!

Personally I don't mind the idea behind the Breeding Pits ("Orcs push themselves to desperate measures, dooming their own race in a mad desire to get revenge"). I think where it falls apart is the execution.

A few minor points that may help.

1) People have brought up "make them plants instead." I would actually propose you give their main body a non-human appearance...but keep a nongendered orc head. Lots of pipes running through them, fluids being injected and whatnot. You don't need to actually describe any births happening - and indeed maybe it's better if those are explicitly NOT described. Their eyes are still just as filled with pain, sadness, and a bit of horror as before, but the actual body isn't just non-female, it's non-human and un-gendered entirely. In order to ensure they're in a consistent state of making new soldiers, the doctors have turned them into something Else. But by retaining actual eyes (the window to the soul, after all) you maintain the connection that there's still a sentient being inside of all this madness. It can also help push the body horror aspect; these aren't messed up female forms, you don't even know what gender they are - or were, if they even ARE a gender anymore.

2) Add a note in the lore that any and all orcs born through this measure, regardless of gender, are sterile. There's no sperm. There are no eggs. Push that idea that this isn't even about actually saving the race - it's about making an army to burn the world down with you. As it stands I'm fairly sure most characters can't tell orc gender by their picture (especially if it's an ASCII letter ) so changing descriptors to "it" instead of "he" or "she" and pushing the idea that the orcs don't seem to actually care about gender could help. After all, NONE of them are having kids - that's what the baby machines are for, right? So maybe some of the orcs are male and maybe some are female, but they're ALL sterile, and my dumb skeleton or yeek certainly can't tell the difference.

3) Just a small thought, but maybe make a new orc type. There are orc wyrmics, summoners, necromancers, corruptors, etc, but no orcs of the psionic or afflicted classes. These could be orcs that came out wrong in the pits. The measures aren't perfected yet. Some orcs are filled with a near supernatural hate (ho ho ho, or Hate, eh? eh? Nobody? Ah, it's a bad one anyways) and nobody knows why...because nobody asks the "donors." I'll be honest, this is just because I liked Afflicted classes and would love to see more lore of them~.

The main goal here is threefold. First, help push the idea that the orcs are desperate - and in their desperation, they're only making things worse. Second, help push that the orcs pretty much already gave up on themselves. They know they're going to die. They just want to take every single one of you with them. There's a definitive sense of nihilism throughout the orc lore. They've already had their greatest leader. They already had their greatest run at the other races. They're in a decline and they know it, and they refuse to stop or try fighting it. Third, and last, help keep that ambiguity. If you kill the "doners" then the orc race - so long as you know - actually is gone. There are no other orcs that can have kids by now. At the same time, not only are you helping end this final, mad war, you are putting the monstrous "doners" out of an existence of horror and pain. The basic gist I always got from the Breeding Pits was that you weren't just supposed to think "I'm a monster," you were also supposed to think "but what else could I do?" You have to do something horrible to STOP something horrible.