Making the Breeding Pits Less Disgusting

[Doctornull]

I'm curious where the sex-fantasy vibe is coming from...

So far as I can tell, nobody thinks "sex-fantasy" when they read about the wall of squelching vulvae.

They do think "horror--", because the definition of pornography includes: "3 : the depiction of acts in a sensational manner so as to arouse a quick intense emotional reaction <the pornography of violence>".

I don't want to use the phrase "I like the idea of the orcs warping their women into monsters", because that sounds - horrifying, but it really solidifies the point of "the orcs are completely beyond redemption now".

Except they're not supposed to be beyond redemption...we're playing them in the next campaign, after all.

Next campaign is about the orcs who did NOT turn their few remaining females into Blight-fueled vagina-golem horrors.

The orcs which are the foes in the current ToME campaign sure seem beyond redemption to me.

[Grakor456]

Next campaign is about the orcs who did NOT turn their few remaining females into Blight-fueled vagina-golem horrors.

The orcs which are the foes in the current ToME campaign sure seem beyond redemption to me.

Has this been actually stated anywhere? Because what I read so far suggests that the orcs in general were never supposed to be evil, just desperate, and I haven't read anything of substance about the Kruk pride to make any such assumptions about them.

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

For what it's worth I support removing the bit about "vulvae" as being unnecessarily graphic, though I consider the bit pretty much as far from titillating as possible. While I consider myself open-minded about other peoples' fantasies/fetishes, I have to admit I'm a bit disturbed that some people consider the description "sexualized"

"Sexualized" and "Titillating" are not even remotely the same thing. The first word has more to do with presentation and subject matter, while the second has to do with the reactions to it. One can say that something is "Sexualized" without finding it the least bit interesting in that way. I have not seen a single person accuse this of being Titillating, just sexualized.

[Chakan]

There's some truth to what he says.. if there were as much "Another point of view" lore for dragons as there is for orcs, would killing their hatchlings be any more acceptable?

It's, ah, a little different. If you think about it and can't figure out why, I can spell it out but it should be pretty apparent.

But yeah, The breeding pit feels too much like "he killed all the younglings" from Star Wars.

[belmarduk]

As you've asked for people's input on this, I'm going to be kinda blunt, Grey:

I would love to see the Breeding Pits gone, flat out. It hits the "this is heavily misogynistic/sexualized" button nearly immediately and nulls out everything else for me - disgust, interest in lore, creepiness, empathy for the orcs, any of the qualities you wanted evoked - it just jumps to "this is trash and dumb and I can't justify playing this part for anything other than gameplay". It's an incredibly jarring reaction that just gets me pissed off and - when I managed to get creeped out at it - I get creeped out at you, Grey. Does this represent your views? No. I hope. But it's repulsive to a level where it's not the game world, it's the game itself.

Any of SageAcrin's suggestions will do as an alt - hate filled miasma, disaster zone from the attempt, blight cloning labs with experiments going/gone horribly wrong, ripping apart time to try and get more orcs to this time period, but this basically has always felt like someone else's misogynistic disturbing sexual fantasies to me. Sorry, but that's basically where I've landed with this.

I am so tired of the "women in refrigerator" angle being applied any time something bad happens to a female character in fiction. If you really think the literal, actual hatred of women (that's what that word means, for the record) had anything to do with the narrative decisions that lead up to the creation of the breeding pits, I think you're crazier than the breeding pits themselves. There is better reasons to get rid of the pits.

I don't want to use the phrase "I like the idea of the orcs warping their women into monsters", because that sounds - horrifying, but it really solidifies the point of "the orcs are completely beyond redemption now".

Except they're not supposed to be beyond redemption...we're playing them in the next campaign, after all.

Given that the orcs we're playing in the next campaign didn't sacrifice their women to the breeding pits, it's probably pretty safe to assume they were exiled and exist in a cultural and societal bubble from the existing prides. They're going to be motivated enough about the near extinction of their race to want Sunwall and the hero from the west dead, but I doubt you're going to be singing eulogies for the madmen of the prides.

I'm curious where the sex-fantasy vibe is coming from...

So far as I can tell, nobody thinks "sex-fantasy" when they read about the wall of squelching vulvae.

They do think "horror--", because the definition of pornography includes: "3 : the depiction of acts in a sensational manner so as to arouse a quick intense emotional reaction <the pornography of violence>".

This is apt, but I think it's more intended to just be pure body horror, like Alien then anything else. This is what I think the breeding pits are lacking - I think they should remain, and they should very much make the player uncomfortable, but do so in a way that isn't so degrading and stupid. The breeding pits should be the orc atrocity that pushes the player over the edge. If there isn't something like this in the game it's hard to feel anything but sympathy towards the orcs, because in the end they've basically been completely screwed over by everyone. They have to have a "Kick the Dog" moment. Something that's just cartoon evil, otherwise they're too sympathetic.

Next campaign is about the orcs who did NOT turn their few remaining females into Blight-fueled vagina-golem horrors.

The orcs which are the foes in the current ToME campaign sure seem beyond redemption to me.

Has this been actually stated anywhere? Because what I read so far suggests that the orcs in general were never supposed to be evil, just desperate, and I haven't read anything of substance about the Kruk pride to make any such assumptions about them.

In most of the lore in the east you get the impression that the current leaders of the prides have sort of ridden the Orcs straight into the maw of hell for the sake of revenge. Their race is on the verge of extinction and they don't expect to recover. They're trying to take everyone else with them. The breeding pits and the lore in Rak'Shor pride are probably the best examples of where the Orc race is going. Most of the other lore in the game paints them as sympathetic, which as I said, makes it extremely hard to actually take them seriously as villains.

[evouga]

I am so tired of the "women in refrigerator" angle being applied any time something bad happens to a female character in fiction. If you really think the literal, actual hatred of women (that's what that word means, for the record) had anything to do with the narrative decisions that lead up to the creation of the breeding pits, I think you're crazier than the breeding pits themselves. There is better reasons to get rid of the pits.

If you were a deranged orcish geneticist, by far the most logical thing for you to do would be to somehow implant uteruses in the men and use them to breed your army. By far. The fact that the... things... giving birth in the pits started out as women, instead of as men or a 50/50 mix of the two sexes, is nothing but a reflection of the zone author's flagrant sexism and male privilege.

[Davion Fuxa]

I am so tired of the "women in refrigerator" angle being applied any time something bad happens to a female character in fiction. If you really think the literal, actual hatred of women (that's what that word means, for the record) had anything to do with the narrative decisions that lead up to the creation of the breeding pits, I think you're crazier than the breeding pits themselves. There is better reasons to get rid of the pits.

If you were a deranged orcish geneticist, by far the most logical thing for you to do would be to somehow implant uteruses in the men and use them to breed your army. By far. The fact that the... things... giving birth in the pits started out as women, instead of as men or a 50/50 mix of the two sexes, is nothing but a reflection of the zone author's flagrant sexism and male privilege.

One thing to note about this game is that is comes off as a dark reflection of ourselves. Racial Discrimination, the seething Hatred toward Magic, the Halflings Slavery or other races, even the Rhaloran angle in the game can be seen comparatively with aspects in our history. The Orc Breeding Pits follows similarly in that vein of thought - reflectively of our world.

[Grakor456]

This is apt, but I think it's more intended to just be pure body horror, like Alien then anything else. This is what I think the breeding pits are lacking - I think they should remain, and they should very much make the player uncomfortable, but do so in a way that isn't so degrading and stupid. The breeding pits should be the orc atrocity that pushes the player over the edge. If there isn't something like this in the game it's hard to feel anything but sympathy towards the orcs, because in the end they've basically been completely screwed over by everyone. They have to have a "Kick the Dog" moment. Something that's just cartoon evil, otherwise they're too sympathetic.

In most of the lore in the east you get the impression that the current leaders of the prides have sort of ridden the Orcs straight into the maw of hell for the sake of revenge. Their race is on the verge of extinction and they don't expect to recover. They're trying to take everyone else with them. The breeding pits and the lore in Rak'Shor pride are probably the best examples of where the Orc race is going. Most of the other lore in the game paints them as sympathetic, which as I said, makes it extremely hard to actually take them seriously as villains.

...why? No, seriously, why do the orcs need a "kick the dog" moment? That the orcs are sympathetic and been screwed over by everyone else (their leaders being jerks aside) seems intentional to me. If they were cartoonishly evil it'd make the moral questions the game poses too black and white. I'd much rather the game be challenging and ambiguous in its morals. Beyond that, the orcs aren't even the ultimate villains of the game anyway.

This also makes me realize something, going back on the thread: the people arguing against the pits don't really have a unified point, and often contradict each other. Some say it's just gross, others say it's the morality of it. Some say the orcs aren't sympathetic at all, while others say they're too sympathetic. That the zone creates that many varied and contradictory beliefs is interesting.

[The Revanchist]

It's more than interesting. If Grey's responses are anything to go by, the goal is to make itself contradictory, in that everyone has a problem with it, in some way. That everyone has a different problem with it seems good, in a manner of speaking.

[Lord Estraven]

First, an aside. I think there's nothing wrong with making the player realize, if only for one shocking moment, that their character is a psychopath. It's the author pulling back the curtain, revealing the escapist fantasy for what it actually is. If done skillfully, it makes people think about things in a new light, and question old assumptions. That's a good thing.

However... I also don't feel that's particularly germane to the problem here.

I only just found out about this part of the game, and haven't played through it. But what I've read has left me quite disgusted.

IIRC there's similar ideas in Frank Herbert's later Dune novels - women reduced to nonsentient womb-tanks. I'm not sure what point Darkgod is trying to make with the Orcs... For that matter I'm not sure what point Herbert was trying to make. In either case it might have been intended well; but to my mind it smacks mostly of dehumanization, pretentiousness, and masturbatory grimdarkness, to the point of losing all further meaning. The strange attempts at dark humor in T4 ("Vagiant," really?) do not improve matters.

To any male, cisgendered posters here who do not understand what I am getting at: try to imagine a woman you know being turned overnight into a braindead breeding machine, and tell me the idea doesn't make you feel physically nauseous.

I'm done here. Mods, please delete my account. Thanks.

[Razakai]

Condemning Grey as a misogynist is a little ridiculous. I might strongly disagree with how the pits were implemented but claiming that the entire concept is due to the author's deep-seated hatred of women is something I'd expect to see on Tumblr.

[Grey]

The strange attempts at dark humor in T4 ("Vagiant," really?) do not improve matters.

"Vagiant" was one of the terms used by someone critical of the zone. It is absolutely not the term used in the game. I think it's a shame that you're judging the zone without the context of playing it.

The point about "women in refrigerators" seems a little misplaced - that's generally used to refer to when an established female character is sacrificed purely for the advancement of a male character's plot. The only time something similar happens in the lore is when Niera dies, changing Linaniil's development, so not quite in the traditional women in refrigerator vein.

However I can understand how the zone could be considered misogynistic. It certainly hits on some of the issues presented in Anita Sarkeesian's "The Mystical Pregnancy" video. Attempts to explain it in the context of the story are fairly irrelevant when it's the final representation that gets judged, not the context. I'll have a think about how to improve this...

I would point out that we have tried to have several strong female characters in the lore. Linaniil, Myssil, Aeryn, Celia, to name a few. I also campaigned hard against what I considered to be sexist imagery in the game's boot screen. Female representation in games is something I take very seriously.

Many of the points here are very contradictory, which does make it hard to change anything beyond just stripping the zone out entirely. But since many have said they like the zone it's not easy to do that either! The suggestions for changes so far are just too short of what the zone is intending to achieve. Specifically it must:
- Show desperation from the orcs, to the point of using a short-termist, self-destructive solution
- Some realisation from the orcs that what they're doing is wrong
- Pity from the player for the individuals involved (requiring persons, not vines or pods)
- Disgust from the player, on moral and physical levels, at what is going on
- Require killing that the player is uncomfortable with
- Result in a form of irrecoverable genocide for the orcs
- All be optional, with no reward

I've not seen much reaction to the changes implemented so far. Does it help to have the player presented with a choice of "go do the zone", "report the zone to Aeryn to handle" or "I refuse to do this"?

[Zonk]

One thing to note about this game is that is comes off as a dark reflection of ourselves. Racial Discrimination, the seething Hatred toward Magic, the Halflings Slavery or other races, even the Rhaloran angle in the game can be seen comparatively with aspects in our history. The Orc Breeding Pits follows similarly in that vein of thought - reflectively of our world.

I think the whole 'talk about slavery, racism and things like the inquisition in fantasy game' is a nice idea in theory, but in practice most attempts at portraying it seem...off to me.
You can draw parallels, but I think if you look more closely you will notice there are very important differences.

Why? Well, because the fantasy aspect changes things VERY considerably. Yes, you can do historical parallels to make a point, but then you really have to dial down the fantasy aspect.

Because the fantasy 'races' - more like species - I wish we used that term more but can understand it feels more scifi than fantasy - in the game CAN be *extremely*different from each other in ways that are not just external appareance or culture like it's assumed for human ethnic groups.

We talk about 'demonizing the Other', but in fantasy one can have *literal* demons.

(Something which I strongly remember and seems vaguely related: someone on the site commented that having a 'Higher' human subrace was racist because well, you can't have a fantasy human subrace that is actually superior, even if it's through magic and they're not actually flat out better because well, Cornacs get the category point instead. It was an isolated incident but it stuck with me.)

You also mention the hate of magic, I assume you're thinking of the Inquisition and 'Witchcraft'? Sure, you can draw a parallel between Zigurs and real-world inquisitors, and think both were/are in the wrong(and I'd agree!) but there is a HUGE difference: in Maj'Eyal, magic *actually exists* as do *really nasty*mages. So it's definetely not the same!
It can be a very interesting philosophical exercise - would we think the same of the Inquisition if we knew about the existence of terrible real witches/warlocks cursing people back in the Middle Ages for example? It seems to me that we'd still think so (of course - there would have been innocents), but I personally would find it more 'understandable'.
So I definetely disagree it's just a 'dark reflection' of ourselves. It's not just a matter of putting labels on things in fantasy game and saying this is the same as X historically.


Sorry for the derail - I just think these matters deserve a lot of serious discussion -, back to orcs:

I haven't had a chance to see the changes in game yet, and I'm sure they're done well, and pleased that some people will be less offended/disgusted - and again, the desriptions WERE just a bit excessive in my opinion - but I *do* think *something* was lost by making the Orcs more 'human'(and we may disagree on what that means) and less, well-orcish.

Because there's 'make this fantasy race partially sympathetic and not Always Chaotic Evil' - and I don't think orcs were portrayed as the usual kind of Chaotic Evil even before, anyway - and then there's the other extreme 'these fantasy people are EXACTLY the same as humans if you look at their base psychology, the only behave differently because of discrimination and their culture'.
Nevermind that we did know orcs had different cultures anyway - the 4 prides plus the 'other'orcs, although again the latter might need more mentioning in game lore.

Basically to me this really kills the 'fantasy', because it almost ends up making all the fantasy races look like made-up human ethnic groups.

Actually, this might be another sidetrack but: although the existing ingame lore IS good, I'd definetely be in favor of differentiating the other races from humans more culturally.
I can understand similarities between humans and halflings because of their particular relationship but I'd definetely want elves and dwarves to feel more different from each other, and not just through talents. Yeeks are the only ones that really stand out to me as really different psychologically honestly.


Edit: Noticed someone brought up my dragon hatchling(and snow giant)comment asking if I was 'for real'. Yes, why wouldn't I be? Unless I misunderstood some lore, Maj'Eyal dragons are definetely more intelligent than mere beasts. And snow giants DEFINETELY are. My point was that Orcs seem to be singled out, and I wonder if it's 'just' because of the mothers/pits and because they are much more imporant lore wise, or because they are humanoid-looking. Likely a mix of the two.

[Grey]

Basically to me this really kills the 'fantasy', because it almost ends up making all the fantasy races look like made-up human ethnic groups.

I don't see the problem with this. Every fantasy or sci-fi show has always used other races as reflection of humanity in some way. Humanity is interesting! ToME doesn't deliberately try to make commentary on bits of human history, but it does use them as inspiration for how society would behave under these circumstances. So the presence of world-threatening magic would indeed lead to extreme anti-magic groups, and different races would grow to despise each other. This is all part of making the setting somewhat believable. It's less about commentary and more about internal consistency.

Actually, this might be another sidetrack but: although the existing ingame lore IS good, I'd definetely be in favor of differentiating the other races from humans more culturally.
I can understand similarities between humans and halflings because of their particular relationship but I'd definetely want elves and dwarves to feel more different from each other, and not just through talents. Yeeks are the only ones that really stand out to me as really different psychologically honestly.

The dwarves are presented as having a different psychology. Of course it's a fairly simple play on the traditional greed-centric representation of dwarves.
Shaloren are immortal, and that changes their social attitude significantly. We don't see this a lot in the game because they don't play a big role in modern Maj'Eyal.
Thaloren are isolationist and untrusting of outsiders. Their nature affinity has some impact on Zigur philosophy.
Halflings are very human in nature, but they also have a touch of "small man syndrome", behaving brashly and arrogantly.
The orcs are extremely militarist and power-focused. They believe fervently in racial pride, and more recent developments have "cut all softness" from them. By their history they have become a monstrous race. Whilst their history is very human, their present situation is not.

A problem of course is in adequately representing these racial differences. It's a tactical combat game, and what lore pieces there are mostly exist to develop a general backstory to the game. There's little to flesh out society and regular day to day life for normal people. Perhaps if someone makes a - sim variant we can look into that more ;)

[Zonk]

I don't see the problem with this. Every fantasy or sci-fi show has always used other races as reflection of humanity in some way. Humanity is interesting!

Yes, but up to a point. Seeing some fantasy races that genuinely 'alien' (even if not too much - after all it's not easy to portray, I know) would be refreshing.
Reflection of humanity can end up as being 'almost the same as real world historical cultures' or 'just humans, but with some exaggerated trait'.

ToME doesn't deliberately try to make commentary on bits of human history, but it does use them as inspiration for how society would behave under these circumstances.
So the presence of world-threatening magic would indeed lead to extreme anti-magic groups, and different races would grow to despise each other. This is all part of making the setting somewhat believable. It's less about commentary and more about internal consistency.

Got nothing to criticize on that, though I'd have to say that of course people WILL read some things as commentary even when it's clearly not meant to be, but not much you can do with that.
Wasn't really bringing up inter-races relationships or the world history (which I appreciate having moved quite far from its Tolkienan roots!). My point was most about how the races were portrayed.

The dwarves are presented as having a different psychology. Of course it's a fairly simple play on the traditional greed-centric representation of dwarves.

Shaloren are immortal, and that changes their social attitude significantly. We don't see this a lot in the game because they don't play a big role in modern Maj'Eyal.
Thaloren are isolationist and untrusting of outsiders. Their nature affinity has some impact on Zigur philosophy.

Greed and isolationism are just 'human' traits that would be exaggerated/focused on, though. Which is why they end up looking, if not stereotypes, well, far more human than they need to be.
On Shaloren yes, it would be nice to portray that though as you said, they don't have a big role. Naloren too.
And while Thalore aren't fully immortal from what I remember they are still extremely long-lived which would change their attitude significantly.
I doubt there'd ever be an elf-focused campaign but it could be interesting, especially if there was interplay between the (remaining?) similarities of the elven cultures, though I doubt it. Perhaps the Zigur-affinity of Thalore is influenced(or influences) rivalry with their Shalore cousins who are supposed to be among the best mages in the world, stuff like that.

Halflings are very human in nature, but they also have a touch of "small man syndrome", behaving brashly and arrogantly.

Yep, that was noticed, though I never thought of it as the so-called small man effect. I thought of them as more 'simply' arrogant/militarized than having something to prove to make up for their small size.
But again, I understand them being more similar to humans - because their backstory and well, they're even fertile with humans, or at least one was with a Higher. So it makes sense they'd be quite relatable to.

The orcs are extremely militarist and power-focused. They believe fervently in racial pride, and more recent developments have "cut all softness" from them. By their history they have become a monstrous race. Whilst their history is very human, their present situation is not.

Again, that's very human to me. Which is a bit the point of the thread - I don't even think they're very 'monstrous' in the fantasy sense.
In fact the warrior pride seems somewhat like a stereotypical militarized society - tempted to say Sparta, but wouldn't quite fit. It's not a *bad* portrayal and giving them their point of view is awesome, but again, making them more different could have been interesting - not talking about making them born from pods/fungi/plants like some suggested before though. Just less human in general outlook. Looking forward to seeing how the orc campaign handles that.

A problem of course is in adequately representing these racial differences. It's a tactical combat game, and what lore pieces there are mostly exist to develop a general backstory to the game. There's little to flesh out society and regular day to day life for normal people. Perhaps if someone makes a - sim variant we can look into that more

True, true. My point was that if you humanize too much, you end up with non-human 'races' that are, if not stereotypes, mostly humans with some exaggerated features.
That's why I praised yeeks - they may not be the most exotic concept either but they DO feel different, although of course having an unique mini-continent with starting zones DOES help a lot.


(and btw, sorry again for the derail but I felt it was mildly relevant, perhaps these generic lore discussions should be dealt with elsewhere. As I said, your lore is quite good and ToMe is of course a great game, but I *do* feel it shouldn't be afraid to move even more away from its 'classic fantasy'roots sometimes. After all one of the great things about ToME is not being afraid to do revolutionary things, even if that sometimes means turning off some old-style people.
Back to Orcs, will definetely look forward to getting to the East again and seeing how it plays in practice!)