Making the Breeding Pits Less Disgusting

[Doctornull]

I think a lot of people are missing the point pretty badly. The slaughter of women and children, while an issue, isn't really what people are complaining about. It's the pointlessly graphic flavor text that at best adds nothing and at worst makes you think someone wrote the fluff for the mothers one handed.

Exactly right.

Nobody is up in arms about betraying escorts even though that is "darker" and "grittier" and actually has some kind of moral choice implied. If you lovingly described the slow, painful burning of each escort, in some kind of disgusting torture--, then guess what? People would get up in arms about it, and they'd be right to do so, because adding torture-- would add nothing of value to the game.

Nobody is up in arms about the Orcs being sad abominations who have essentially cut off their own future as a species in order to try to win a war. That's actually kind of cool. What people are objecting to is the lovingly over-written descriptions of disgusting shit, plus the "click on icon of baby to stab baby in its baby-face" shit.

So please let's not confuse the issue of "this shit is disgusting" with "this is too dark".
It's not too dark.
It's too disgusting, and it's pointlessly disgusting.

Premise: Very long post, I feel this is an important discussion. I do believe some people are put off by this and it's a shame, although it seems so odd to me that the main/firstcomplaints would come from a site called 'Something Awful'...I can understand the 'not kid friendly' complaints, though I think having 'censored' and 'uncut' versions of the game would be a bit sad.

It's where I happened to find a good page-and-a-half of complaints about this topic, so it was a convenient place to gather complaints. These are not the only, nor the first, complaints I've read on this topic... but I'm lazy and gathering citations is hard work, unless they magically all appear in one place, which they did and so I made this thread.

IMHO at the point you need to have a "normal" and "uncut" game, just make the "normal" game. There's nothing about the orc tragedy which requires puerile gross-out horrorporn.

[Sirrocco]

It's pretty straightforward, actually. All that needs to be done is to make the game not pornographic. Body horror is not so much a problem in general, but this is explicitly sexual body horror, which inherently makes it a particularly bizarre form of -, whether that was the intent or not. There is nothing wrong with having pornographic games. I play and enjoy pornographic games. The problem is that TOME is presenting as mainstream, while having this weird little annex off in a corner that's full of freaky (and probably unintentional) -. This, predictably, horrifies and turns off a number of people who would otherwise enjoy the game a fair bit (and who were, until that point, doing just that). That's unfortunate, and honestly, the fix is really very easy. You don't need an alternate version. You don't need to tone down the darkness of it. All you have to do is adjust a few descriptions, and possibly an image or few, to make the horror less explicitly in-your-face sexual. As for the benefits of controversy, it's not pornographic *enough* - there's not enough - there to really draw in and keep the sort of people who would hear about the controversy and try it out because of it.

If what you want is dark, orcish mothers shackled to the walls, crying out from the agony of constant childbirth sounds plenty dark to me - and you don't have to oversexualize it.

[Grey]

I don't get how it is in any way sexualised at present :-/

[SageAcrin]

I'm pretty sure you can display graphic material and it's still graphic even if it's not sexualized.

There's some infamous internet meme links that have been around for ages that would argue my case for me, but I'd rather not even say specific names lest someone search for them.

[Doctornull]

I don't get how it is in any way sexualised at present :-/

There are quite a lot of people who do see it that way.

It's very human to see only what you intended to create rather than being able to see what you actually did create -- this is why editors have jobs and why getting feedback from outsiders is so important for a creative endeavor.

[darkgod]

Sadly this issue will not be resolved since both sides are right in their own manner :=)

I'll add an alternate zone that makes it a little less gross that activates with the censor option.
Zone should be the breeding pits, after "cleanup". The place is infested with hate echoes of the mothers and the sun paladin who did the cleaning turned mad.

Grey may I get lore for it please ?

[Doctornull]

Sadly this issue will not be resolved since both sides are right in their own manner :=)

What actually is the argument of the "other side"?

SageAcrin asked this:

I've never heard what the imagery actually brings to the area, artistically, and I've heard from others, repeatedly, comments that it feels like shock value for its own sake, rather than anything coherent with the game as a whole. I agree, to be honest. It doesn't fit the game.

Everyone has said why people are wrong to want this removed. What is right about wanting it to stay? Especially as the only option?

... and as far as I can tell, nobody has answered it.

Am I missing something? Thanks.

[Grakor456]

... and as far as I can tell, nobody has answered it.

Am I missing something?

You're missing the three posts immediately following the one you quoted?

To sort of condense those arguments (and hopefully not put words in people's mouths, wish me luck!): the zone's imagery adds to emphasize the desperation that the orcs have and what they have been forced to stoop to in order to survive. It also serves to make the player pause and realize what he's really doing. All of that kind of lends to ToME's general theme about showing those treasure-hunting RPG "heroes" as they'd actually be in a realistic situation, psychologically. The imagery all works on that level: only the most desperate of people would create something like the mothers, and stabbing babies is obviously a good way to make people realize that they're killing off a race, making their act of killing children more than figurative.

It's totally cool if you don't agree with that answer...but the answer was given.

[Mewtarthio]

I'll add an alternate zone that makes it a little less gross that activates with the censor option.
Zone should be the breeding pits, after "cleanup". The place is infested with hate echoes of the mothers and the sun paladin who did the cleaning turned mad.

What about those of us who prefer the "clean" boot image but don't want to be locked out of the original zone?

[The Revanchist]

I suppose we'll have to grin and bear it.

[Davion Fuxa]

To sort of condense those arguments (and hopefully not put words in people's mouths, wish me luck!): the zone's imagery adds to emphasize the desperation that the orcs have and what they have been forced to stoop to in order to survive. It also serves to make the player pause and realize what he's really doing. All of that kind of lends to ToME's general theme about showing those treasure-hunting RPG "heroes" as they'd actually be in a realistic situation, psychologically. The imagery all works on that level: only the most desperate of people would create something like the mothers, and stabbing babies is obviously a good way to make people realize that they're killing off a race, making their act of killing children more than figurative.

This is fairly accurate. I'd also throw in that it also sort of illustrates the rather cold outlook that Captain Gumlarat (and the represent view of the entire Orcish Military Hiearchy) where in his little lore message he only sees the results on the totally macro level of things - Lots of New Recruits to add to the Orcish War Efforts compared to before. His lore also further illustrates something in regards to the Orc Woman as well - 'Let's dope our woman so they don't feel physical pain'; which helps to tie in the sort of cognitive dissonance the player would be having they look past the disgusting images in front of them.

[Razakai]

I don't think there's really a problem with the concept of the mothers as such, it's more like Doctornull said, the weird part is how disturbingly detailed it is. While I wasn't that bothered to begin with, I'd be happy if they just rewrote the description and remade the model for the mothers. Tome is a fairly dark game in general, the bit that makes this uncomfortable is definitely the images and description more than the actual content. I'd probably cut the orc babies too as it's honestly kinda silly, just have regular orc guards plus adolescent orcs where them being blight-touched mutants is emphasized, rather than the player merrily killing teenagers. Maybe make the mothers not actually fight, if only because their current toolkit of slime spit and spawn orc doesn't fit with any reworked model/description. That'd keep the intended tone, without it being pointlessly gross or making players too uncomfortable.

[orange<]

I don't have much constructive to say, in terms of change ideas. I'd just like to voice my thoughts on the Breeding Pits.

It was my favourite part of the story arc - that along with what you learn of the dwarves in Reknor, and the cheeky bastard who locks you in his basement.
Mothers, babies, descriptions and all!

It is a horrific juxtaposition to the killing mindless warlike orcs theme prevalent through the game, even if all orc lore had already been read. But this is what makes it so great! You learn firsthand the lengths to which the orcs had gone to, losing their culture, families, and homes, in order to save their race. Are you furthering the horrors the orcs have faced? Are you saving the world from such a despised race? And you finally putting the poor, pitiful orcs out of such misery? Are you a good guy, or a bad guy?

It raises moral questions, and gives depth to the story far more than any previous dilemmas. The question isn't one of whether you want +Mag or +Will from an escort, want to buy randarts or unlock poisons. The questions this area poses is one of genocide.

I understand that it is rather gruesome, and am fully behind an option to tone down the area, or an option to tone up the idea to it original glorious horrors, if the player chooses to do so. But I think to change the dungeon for all and everyone would be a pity, as it lends a certain depth to the game - a depth which I hope would become even more apparent when the planned Orc Campaign DG revealed last year arrives.

[SageAcrin]

I suppose we'll have to grin and bear it.

As a note, having the censor option not forbid the original Pits, but still forbid the current bootup images, should be unbelievably easy to make an addon for.

[The Revanchist]

I suppose we'll have to grin and bear it.

As a note, having the censor option not forbid the original Pits, but still forbid the current bootup images, should be unbelievably easy to make an addon for.

Indeed it should. Assuming, of course, it isn't in the main game itself. I don't see a reason, really, to totally remove the original version. Just... have it as an option, and have the default be "safe mode". Like most of us are saying.