Getting tired of cheap deaths...

[rod]

I agree that it does come down to how tight you make the RNG boundaries, and you get different feeling games as a result, and both ends have thier place.

Wide variance == more deaths. For me, the non-renewable nature of adventure mode is what rubs me wrong, so Explorable is where it's at. Since I've made the switch, I've been having more fun.

If you're making a game that's more of the single death == lose style, like classic rogue-likes, then I think the random variances need to be brought in some more.

[HousePet]

Adventure mode is the standard for this game.

[jenx]

Adventure mode is the standard for this game.

True, but would strongly recommend, contrary to many on these forums, that you play roguelike normal.

My playing improved astronomically after losing lots of characters initially.

Now, I would think it is entirely my fault if I died before getting to the east, except for extremely rare RNG disasters, usually in Lake Nur alternate, or vault in Rhaloren with high level corruptor.

I also am disappointed if I don't beat the ambush, and I can't remember not beating it. And I play lots of different characters. There are lots of deaths under my character list, but most of these are nownightmare mode, or classes I don't play much and have not mastered.

In fact, those of us who play nightmare etc, find normal mode so easy that we lookfor tougher enemies. Which is why I developed a better ai for both tactical and dumb npcs.

I've written a guide to help players win the game playing Dwarven Solipsist on roguelike - http://te4.org/wiki/Walk-through_for_Dwarven_Solipsist. There are lots of tips in there, but here are critical ones:

1. HP, HP, HP - my goal is to have 750 life by the time I ht Lake Nur. So I sacrifice most things for life, and will try to have 5-6 items adding life. so look for lanterns of health, armor of eyal, heroic gloves, etc. I check every shop in every town just for + life gear. Under lvl 20, you will be killed usually by 100-200 damage over your limit. So get 400 over your natural limit and you're set.
2. Movement, movement, movement - play classes that forbid teleport, and you quickly learn how to really play the game without dying, as yo have nowhere to hide. Why is this important? There are several places in the game, some compulsory, where you can't teleport to safety. So u have to know how to beat what is before you. So pupt away your teleport runes and learn how to use shields, heroism infusions, healing talents etc.
3. Saves, saves, saves - saves make a huge difference in this game. I value saves over resists, power, etc, over everything except hp/life.
4. Light radius - very few people emphasise this, but it accounts for endless deaths - archers you can't see, mages you can't see, horrors u can't see, and so forth. This is so important, as most npcs that do high damage are weak defensively (e.g. corruptors). So I aim to get light radius to 10 wherever possible. But at least 5 or 6. I would almost guarantee that if you had say light radius of 8, your number of deaths would plummet.
5. Means to debuff - be they talents, infusions, equipment. Hurricane? it will kill you most times, unless you can turn it off, or save against it. Don't bother with resists. Impending Doom, which you often first encounter in the six orb dungeon, likewise.
6. Quick killing - offence is the best defence in tome. do whatever you can to increase your damage per turn. not overall damage, but damage per turn. one talent does 600 damage over 5 turns with short cd, another does 180 in one turn with long cd. way too many players choose the 600 talent. but the 180 does 60 more damage in the first turn. *** The AI is such that once an npc takes a certain amount of damage, it will change tactics and talent usage. They have almost no kamikaze behaviour built in (my addon added this in, to make them tougher, but is out of date now). So your extra 60 damage may cause npc to retreat, to heal, to regen, to phase door. so you take one hit from it instead of 2 or 3. ***
a. this means for low level characters, simple on-hits on weapons is very advantageous. so take an iron dagger with +12 nature damage over a steel one with some nice stats or resists.
7. Talent concentration - except for a few rare cases, most characters benefit from maxxing a few talents rather than spreading. So a great way to learn tome is to pick a class, and one or at most two trees. And dump everything into them. your stat points into its stat, every class point, everything you can. you will probably die, but you will also start to understand how talents really work. the trick to tome is that talents can be very very different at high levels. some become less and less useful (e.g. ones that boos defence imo) and others that seem mediocre can become hugely powerful.

and perhaps the biggest tip of all, which all classes can benefit from is, imho:

8. generate allies - minions, mucus thingos, thought forms, shadows, and for the non-summoners: TENTACLES. and spiders, and vampires, etc. This gives you a huge number of benefits, that players don't realise (so much so, that in insane mode, it is basically a requirement):
a. you can swap places with them. think, grand master assassin flurrying your thought form, rather than you. [again, this is important particularly BECAUSE NPCS TALENT COOLDOWNS ARE MUCH MUCH LONGER THAN OURS. (so flurry might have a 25 cd for an npc for example). so they are often one-hit wonders and that one hit you want on your disposable friend.
b. they see differently and further than you. put him in front of you, and you effectively have +11 range for vision. so they act as scouts.
c. the ai targets the CLOSEST enemy. so as long as that is not you, you're safe. It never thinks, 'oh, here is a thought form, I'll skip that and go for the character.'

As I said, switch to roguelike, follow these tips, and your experience of tome will change dramatically. I used to be so worried by the master and then the ambush. nowadays, i am not concerned at all, just disappointed if it takes me too long to kill them.

enjoy!

[Mewtarthio]

8. generate allies - minions, mucus thingos, thought forms, shadows, and for the non-summoners: TENTACLES. and spiders, and vampires, etc. This gives you a huge number of benefits, that players don't realise (so much so, that in insane mode, it is basically a requirement):

[...]

c. the ai targets the CLOSEST enemy. so as long as that is not you, you're safe. It never thinks, 'oh, here is a thought form, I'll skip that and go for the character.'

Not anymore. In the latest release, the AI automatically targets the summoner once the summon is dealt with.

[The Revanchist]

That's quite a lot of good advice. I've learned something, at any rate. And I do play Roguelike mode...

[jenx]

8. generate allies - minions, mucus thingos, thought forms, shadows, and for the non-summoners: TENTACLES. and spiders, and vampires, etc. This gives you a huge number of benefits, that players don't realise (so much so, that in insane mode, it is basically a requirement):

[...]

c. the ai targets the CLOSEST enemy. so as long as that is not you, you're safe. It never thinks, 'oh, here is a thought form, I'll skip that and go for the character.'

Not anymore. In the latest release, the AI automatically targets the summoner once the summon is dealt with.

the key here is though, 'once the summon is dealt with' - and in those 1+ turns, you get to attack without being targetted in many cases. or is it cleverer than that?

[jenx]

And one more tip for those who wish to truly master ToME.

In windows, right click on te4.exe and Create Shortcut

Right click on shortcut and goto Properties

to cmd line, add --flush-stdout after te4.exe (i.e. ...te4.exe --flush-stdout )

download a tail program that follows the end of a file, rather than the front. i use baretail.exe.

run the shortcut. then run the tail program and point it to the log.

The shortcut forces the game to push info to the log immediately, rather than the delay that occurs normally.

the tail program lets you watch the log in real time, as it scrolls by.

study this as you play, and your knowledge of the game will grow exponentially.

you might need to ask on the forums how to decode some of the lines.


what you really want to come to grips with first is chace to hit, chance for critical, the effect of armor, crit reduction, damage penetration, effect of shields etc.

For example, (yet another tip!), when considering weapons for damage, particualrly at higher levels, the lower of the two damage numbers is what you want to maximise (e.g. 85.0 - 95.0, the 85). When you study the log, you realise that because so many values are multiplied cumulatively from the base, a small increase in the base gives much better boost to damage. And crucially, say you have +50 onhit nature damage. This is unaffected by the base, and so becomes less significant as the base increases. And if you have say physical damage type, and dmg increase for physical and penertration for physical, it is the base that matters way more than the onhits.

you will see how dramatic this is if you study the log while you play and experiment with different weapoons.

[rod]

Hey Jenx, thanks for the tips, and the explanations behind them.

This was much more useful than most of the tips out there, since it gives a good glimpse into the mindset you're taking in. In particular, how you prioritize things.

Doing some "meta" reading into your comments, a general trend is to prioritize for things which help in as many cases as possible.
- HP is defense against everything vs the various resistances. (though, I'd expect resist all to be high priority, since it's a straight up HP multiplier)
- Controlling the field of battle (movement/vision) protects against all.
- There's 3 saves to master, vs 7 immunities
- Dead foes do no damage.
- Disposable allies are amazing.

For leveling, it would sound like general priorities would be to sink into constitution first, and secondly into your primary damage stat, and then into the 'saves' stats allowed.

I'll be keeping this in mind, and see how it goes.

[grmblfzzz]

+1 to Jenx for being so helpful! Also, may well go study some log fancy log info, as base log is less than stellar at subtleties.

A few other general tips for original poster and whoever else might be interested: The very first thing in the game I'll do, often before clearing out even the first level you start in depending on your class/race (Screw you, scintilating caverns!), is go check shops for things. You start out with enough gold to buy a psychoport torque if one exists in Zigur/Shatur, which I will always keep equiped until I have other options. If you clear out first level, you can also always afford at least a more common teleport rune from Elvala/Last hope, or a movement infusion at earliest opportunity from Zigur/Last Hope, which are amazing in the begining.

Basically, put a high priority on always being able to at least make a creditable attempt at disengaging from scary things

[Davion Fuxa]

This thread is a few days old but I figured it was also worth adding that many of us have probably been in your situations and died from them as well. Just to list a few of mine (with YouTube Links):

A Bad Entry in the Dark Crypt? Perhaps not as bad as you described but nonetheless it was a horrible entry that did get me killed. (Death is directly at start of video)

Early Dungeon Death to an Overpowered Enemy? I still remember the horrible death in the Old Forest on that early Shaloran Summoner I made. (Check Toward the End of the Video for the Death)

Dying due to Reckless Actions? Nothing screams more reckless then the first three deaths of my Higher Anorithil I'm currently running. Not only do I cover your 'charging into areas over my level' but I also hit up 'opening up the precious while ignoring the consequences' to boot. Arguably I have also had 'my' cheapest every death in the video capture as well (first one in the video), though that's probably up to debate since I knew I was going into an area I was horribly underleveled for. (Deaths were all located in 2nd instance of Unknown Tunnels)

I'm sure if you looked through my videos you might find other horrible deaths matching what you have listed here as well.

[jenx]

Hey Jenx, thanks for the tips, and the explanations behind them.

This was much more useful than most of the tips out there, since it gives a good glimpse into the mindset you're taking in. In particular, how you prioritize things.

Doing some "meta" reading into your comments, a general trend is to prioritize for things which help in as many cases as possible.
- HP is defense against everything vs the various resistances. (though, I'd expect resist all to be high priority, since it's a straight up HP multiplier)
- Controlling the field of battle (movement/vision) protects against all.
- There's 3 saves to master, vs 7 immunities
- Dead foes do no damage.
- Disposable allies are amazing.

For leveling, it would sound like general priorities would be to sink into constitution first, and secondly into your primary damage stat, and then into the 'saves' stats allowed.

I'll be keeping this in mind, and see how it goes.

I should have mentioned stat order, as i would never pump con first on any character. the beauty of getting say +250 life from gear (or more even) is that this is less of a priority. your primary stat or two is what I would pump, con secondarily. so WIL for solipsists and oozemancers, DEX then CUN then COn for archers, etc. CON helps resist all through generics, but resist all is not as important as people think. too many npcs override resistances with penetration.

[rod]

Hmm. Okay. Con is second, not first.

On my current char, a Thalorne Berserker, I've gotten up to L18. Explorable mode, but no deaths yet. (I'll likely skip adventurer mode completely, and go either explorable or roguelike)

I've been pumping Con, then Str as I keep hitting the cap on Con. I can switch over to Str pretty easily, though. My plan had been to split pnts into Dex (mainly to buff +crit talents) & Willpower (stamina and saves) after those max.

I poked around all the shops, and have looked over my drops, but all I've found so far is about +70hp from gear, and about +10 con on top of that. Is this typical? I'm up to around 678hp, though, a touch behind your talk of 750 for lake nur.

One thing that's been in my head, though: How much attention do you pay to health regen? It won't let you survive a spike, but it will let you shrug off a lot of more minor things, as well as stay engaged after taking some hits. I've seen a couple pts each in Fast Metabolism and Vitality pair up with my Regen infusion... (plus a couple +regen/heal mod gear items I've been getting), and I'm easily pushing +110/turn for 5-6 turns. Seems useful, just pondering if the pts would be better elsewhere, and instead be quicker to run away.

[malboro_urchin]

Hmm. Okay. Con is second, not first.

On my current char, a Thalorne Berserker, I've gotten up to L18. Explorable mode, but no deaths yet. (I'll likely skip adventurer mode completely, and go either explorable or roguelike)

I've been pumping Con, then Str as I keep hitting the cap on Con. I can switch over to Str pretty easily, though. My plan had been to split pnts into Dex (mainly to buff +crit talents) & Willpower (stamina and saves) after those max.

I poked around all the shops, and have looked over my drops, but all I've found so far is about +70hp from gear, and about +10 con on top of that. Is this typical? I'm up to around 678hp, though, a touch behind your talk of 750 for lake nur.

One thing that's been in my head, though: How much attention do you pay to health regen? It won't let you survive a spike, but it will let you shrug off a lot of more minor things, as well as stay engaged after taking some hits. I've seen a couple pts each in Fast Metabolism and Vitality pair up with my Regen infusion... (plus a couple +regen/heal mod gear items I've been getting), and I'm easily pushing +110/turn for 5-6 turns. Seems useful, just pondering if the pts would be better elsewhere, and instead be quicker to run away.

Health regen can be most useful, especially if you grab the Fungus tree, the first talent of which is a sustain that extends your regen infusions' duration for 5 turns. Later in the tree, your infusions will only take 2/3 or a turn or so to use, and the last talent in the line is a direct heal for 600% or so of your current amount of health regen.

[jenx]

Hmm. Okay. Con is second, not first.

On my current char, a Thalorne Berserker, I've gotten up to L18. Explorable mode, but no deaths yet. (I'll likely skip adventurer mode completely, and go either explorable or roguelike)

I've been pumping Con, then Str as I keep hitting the cap on Con. I can switch over to Str pretty easily, though. My plan had been to split pnts into Dex (mainly to buff +crit talents) & Willpower (stamina and saves) after those max.

I poked around all the shops, and have looked over my drops, but all I've found so far is about +70hp from gear, and about +10 con on top of that. Is this typical? I'm up to around 678hp, though, a touch behind your talk of 750 for lake nur.

One thing that's been in my head, though: How much attention do you pay to health regen? It won't let you survive a spike, but it will let you shrug off a lot of more minor things, as well as stay engaged after taking some hits. I've seen a couple pts each in Fast Metabolism and Vitality pair up with my Regen infusion... (plus a couple +regen/heal mod gear items I've been getting), and I'm easily pushing +110/turn for 5-6 turns. Seems useful, just pondering if the pts would be better elsewhere, and instead be quicker to run away.

First, as I said, there are critical moments in the game, such as one entire Pride (of four Prides) where you can't run away. But even the other three, teleporting is so risky I just don't do it. If I can't survive, I'm either not ready, or I'm playing wrong.

SEcondly, I run regens on every character, except of course undead. For most classes, I set regen to autocast when enemies are visible. But a caveat - I turn this off in situations where every turn counts (i.e. Atamathon, final fight etc). This might seem wasteful - I am losing a turn with a chance to kill, and the first regen won't help as I am at full health.

But after a while you realise, many many npcs don't hit you with dmg on the first turn either. And if they hit you with enough damage to kill you, then something is wrong with my setup, total life etc. But let's say they do 350 dmg and I"m running a 600 hp regen over 6 turns. On turn 2, I gain back 100 hp, get my attack away, and I don't have to stress about healing or attacking, as I am healing already.

But as I said, there is a caveat and if you do this, you need to know when to turn it off.

There is another critical tips around regens and other talents that take a turn: TURN THEM ALL ON BEFORE YOU ENTER A LEVEL. This becomes more important later on. Again, I lose one-sixth or so of the regen, but what is 100 hp if I enter a room with 6 corruptors, who will hit me for 1200 hitpoints if I don't disable them immediately.

Another infusion that people don't use strategically is wild, and movement. if you are in a room with 12 orc berserkers, and you can't run and hide (this happens!), what would i do? wild and/or movement and/or phase door (for the resist boost). But do movement last. Then I can't be stunned for several turns. For many situations, this saves your life. But people think, ok, when I"m down to 150 life, I'll use movement and run away - but you die in your first two steps from dot or hits that land while you are running etc.

So the short answer is, I pay a lot of attention to health regen, and I'll spend lots of money to get the very best.

Also, shorter cooldown is much more valuable than an extra 10% of life regen. Tought battles will last long enough to get a second wild/regen/shield on (e.e.g the Ambush), and an extra 4-5 turns I can't afford.

[tylor]

Regen on see is a bad idea. Shield or Heroism are way better.