Remaining Exploits and Abusive Bugs Discussion

[Hachem_Muche]

Just having trap targeting fail in a blocked tile (forcing another try at placement) does seem like the easiest solution.

After further thought, I think a full reset of NPC talents is probably a bad idea. The problem is that this can give the NPCs an advantage over the player (who is probably already having difficulty with the encounter). This would mostly be from level-based effects like infernos, maelstroms, etc., which they could then stack in an area. Other advantages include traps, spawned summons, projectiles, and other things they have created with talents that might be reset. Trying to revert all such effects is potentially messy and fraught with possible bugs.

I think the most generally desirable result is something as reasonably close to a fight "do-over" as you can get, which should probably stay focused on the player, who is going to be much more creative in finding an advantage while switching levels.

[Doctornull]

I think the most generally desirable result is something as reasonably close to a fight "do-over" as you can get, which should probably stay focused on the player, who is going to be much more creative in finding an advantage while switching levels.

Maybe the monsters could "walk away" from the stairs if the PC uses them?

That would reduce the ability to stair-scum (since there'd be no monsters waiting for you to return), reduce zone-stacking abuse (since the monsters would not just stand around in your pile of Earthquakes), and generally be close to a do-over.

It might not help tiny Farportal levels, but at least it will help some levels, and not cause new problems.

[SageAcrin]

That seems fairly easy to implement, too. Just have them teleport to a random tile within 10-20 tiles of their position, if they're within 10-20 tiles of the stairs.

10's probably the safest number. Also granted, it doesn't fix a few setups(like stairdancing Weirdling. Then again, that's the only safe way to do him near the target level, for some classes.).

[HousePet]

That solution seems exploitable too.
You could use it to scatter enemies away from you.

[Hachem_Muche]

I agree, it's a bit too easy to exploit. Just think of how this would affect the entry room in some of the prides.

As another idea, it should be possible to advance the level by a certain number of turns when the player zones in. That is, when changing levels, if the level already exists, all of the monsters are given a fixed number of turns (say 10 turns) to move about, or do whatever they'd normally do in a fight, except that the player isn't there yet. The would cause NPC created map effects and summons to count down, talents to cooldown, etc. This is in addition to a full heal and removing player-created effects on the level and detrimental effects on the NPCs. Doing this multiple times would be almost the same as a complete reset.

The idea is to treat stair-scumming more like the player performing an emergency teleport out of a tight spot.

Two concerns:
Would the player leaving to wait out certain buffs be too abusive? (The melee-monster random rare just hit Shadowveil!)
Depending on how things are handled, most NPC's are likely to seek out the player's last known position (the stairs) and wait for him there.

[Doctornull]

Just think of how this would affect the entry room in some of the prides.

If you use my original suggestion -- that the monsters "walk away" -- then there would be no change in most Pride entryways, since the monsters are generally clustered as far back as they can walk.

I agree that the teleporting sounds exploitable.

Two concerns:
Would the player leaving to wait out certain buffs be too abusive? (The melee-monster random rare just hit Shadowveil!)
Depending on how things are handled, most NPC's are likely to seek out the player's last known position (the stairs) and wait for him there.

So then the optimal strategy becomes descend, make noise / light up area, ascend, monsters now clustered around stairs so teleport and nuke from afar now that you know where they all are?

It's more interesting than current play, I'll give it that.

[SageAcrin]

Actually, the teleport idea could probably be refined easily by just making the teleport not able to break LoS rules.

So, say, Pride entrances will mill around in the starting area, but not able to be scummed out of the starting room.

[darkgod]

Commited many fixes

[Hachem_Muche]

Commited many fixes

Specifically, the game removes (deletes outright or sets the remaining duration to 0) all player created projectiles (arrows, Fireflash ...), map effects (Inferno, Fire storm ...), and entities (including temporary terrain features like Maelstrom, Ice Wall, etc.), traps, and non-party summons (Choker of Dread Vampire).

I think this is enough change to try out before deciding if anything else needs to be done to curb stair-scumming.

Also the player detection changes I proposed for NPC's have been committed.

[Hachem_Muche]

Another abuse I don't think has been mentioned here involves Dominant Will. Yeeks can use this ability with stair scumming to take out all non-elite NPC's in the area around the stairs, mostly without even fighting: Zone in, dominate a monster, zone out to let it die, pick up its loot and exp and wait for the talent to cooldown, then repeat.

The most reasonable solution I can think of is, when the player leaves the level, have the thrall shrug off the domination without harm and stay put.

[Doctornull]

Playing 1.0.5d right now, and the Aether Beam nerf (can't place in walls) prohibits some previously legit uses, like being able to put one in a long hallway of enemies and have it stick around for its full duration.

The problem is that any enemy who steps on the Aether Beam "trap" instantly disarms it, ending the spell.

Maybe make it NOT a trap, so it doesn't care if mooks walk on it or not?

[Stition]

It sounds like the patch will be coming soon, and I'd like to make sure some changes are made or madness will be beaten right away.

Before I took a break for the last month I was able to steamroll through madness as a cursed with the temporal augmentation robe (stopped before high peak since I found some alternate farming methods and they ruin the fun). I imagine the new murder blade is similar.
Cursed have insane damage output per turn and movespeed, so it's easy to gib a couple creatures (even 20k hp bosses) while invincible and retreat to safety. Both items allow anyone to use 2 of the most powerful iconic abilities of berserkers or temporal wardens.
Improved AI would certainly help, since zig zag tunnels confused monsters horribly.
I noticed if a summoned creature had aggro and you fled somewhere, the AI had perfect chasing, unlike if you just ran when it had you targeted.

Being invincible for a short duration makes the difficulty irrelevant unless the creatures can't be killed before it runs out. Even then, the only viable classes are those with damage output over a certain threshold.

Wraithform and ambuscade have probably been addressed but I haven't kept up on the forums.

Swift hands is still largely the reason the augmentation robe is so good.

Each ghoulking can spawn roughly 5000 ghouls. If kept alive at each level threshold, all artifacts and items can be farmed with relative ease (100 armor and belt of unlife or lantern of corpselight for lvl 100 ghoulkings). Nerfing all farming should probably start with anything summoned not dropping items. Bandit lords could be similarly farmed, but ghoulkings are the easiest now.

The 2 hander Coleryn(sp?), is the best weapon in the game. the 140% str combined with 70 attack speed makes it better than the best possible randart.

I didn't test much outside of shadowblades, corruptors, and cursed. Each of these classes should be able to beat madness with sufficient care.

[Faeryan]

http://te4.org/wiki/Colaryem

This?

[Doctornull]

Nerfing all farming should probably start with anything summoned not dropping items. Bandit lords could be similarly farmed, but ghoulkings are the easiest now.

Mmm, this would significantly reduce non-farming drops too.

How about instead, a summoner puts a summon # tag on each summon, and drops decrease exponentially with tag number?

[SageAcrin]

Not especially significant of a drop, to be honest.

Why do summoned Ghouls even have a drop anyways? I didn't think they had equipment, so it must be actually checking for a normal drop, which should be easily avoided with a line in the code, like how the crystal staff can summon crystals that don't drop gems.

Bandit Lords probably just need to not have Summon. They already have their initial pack anyways, it's not a notable change in their competence in general.

Colaryem sounds like an easy fix. Just make it 80%/130% caps. If that's still good, go for 80%/120%. I doubt that's too good.

What's so special about the Temporal Augmentation Robe specifically? I don't recall it getting a notable boost compared to previous, and it still has the same basic upside(Damage Smearing) it always has. Damage Smearing is really good damage mitigation(not perfect, though; A non-optimal player can easily die trying to rely on it), but I'm wondering why you're bringing this up now.

Though, thinking on it, L3 Damage Smearing could stand to be nerfed a bit, as the robe is generally solid anyways. Damage Smearing is definitely one of the iconic damage mitigation skills, and L1 would probably be safe for it. That makes it three turns, like the Murderblade, which is a lot less mitigation time.