Talent and equipent prereqs use only PERMANENT ability score

[HousePet]

I've never bothered with juggling stat items.
If its annoying, don't do it.

What exactly is the objective of this thread?

[Doctornull]

What exactly is the objective of this thread?

To discuss the mechanical implications which are summarized in the thread's title, and expanded upon in the first post.

What exactly was unclear to you?

[HousePet]

So the objective is to discuss what would happen if prerequisites only used base ability scores?

I was wondering if there was some sort of outcome we were after.

[Doctornull]

So the objective is to discuss what would happen if prerequisites only used base ability scores?

I was wondering if there was some sort of outcome we were after.

"A better experience" is the only outcome which really matters.

The game encourages the player to be an item-juggling packrat, and IMHO this is bad for the player's experience.

This is one potential solution, which occurred to me when reading fuzzynord's post.

[SageAcrin]

Really, the issue is probably more that more things than needed are tied to stats.

Optimally, stats should be able to at least somewhat stand on their own merits, and...generally, they do, on reflection. Strength feeds weapon multipliers and physical power, Magic feeds spellpower and staff mults, Cunning and Willpower feed Mindpower, Con has its own role(though it's definitely improved by Thick Skin's requirement), and Dex...Dex is sorta weak, I guess, probably ought to give more Defense or something, even now.

Given that there's required stats for weapons(thanks to their multipliers), an impact to keep mages from all going instantly heavy armor(Fatigue) as well as equipment tendencies to encourage mages to go for lighter armor, and swaps making all of these requirements more or less of a stopgap de facto... well, what actually is the role of the requirements?

They don't do much. Just make Thick Skin (Level*5), drop it down to 2% per level, give Con a (Con-10*0.1)% bonus to Allresistance, buff the Defense on Dex from 0.3 to 0.5(or maybe higher...Dex's Defense impact is really sad, but that would be a start), and chuck 'em-it'd work out fine, probably.

[HousePet]

Thick Skin would be univerally useful and universally available under that system though. Which makes it pointless to be optional and you may as well just give resistance based on level.

Why does dex give so little defense? With 1 accuracy and 0.3 defense per dex, nobody is ever going to miss in late game.
I guess that is why the evasion mechanic exists, its dodging that works.

[SageAcrin]

As opposed to now, where so many players by endgame skip Thick Skin?

Thick Skin's a messy spot. Trying to convert its impact to a stat impact(Yes, that is the original thought for that Con idea. ) doesn't work; It just penalizes all the heavily MAD classes, as they all skip Con and there's never any class based Con boosters. Converting it a little would be safe, and allows the original point of Thick Skin having such a huge Con cap(Making Constitution more useful) to be represented in a stat form, without being too powerful.

It is just a talent tax, right now, yes, but levels don't normally grant intrinsic bonuses outside of HP and resources. The rest comes from talents. One can argue that many class specific talents are just talent taxes, that Psiblades is a talent tax, that basically all of Combat Training is, etc.

Regardless, I've put a lot of thought into a good, self-consistent way to reproduce Thick Skin that doesn't hurt a lot of classes that don't need the damage(and fail to hurt a lot of the best classes), and I've never been happy with any of my ideas. I'd rather just leave it as an out of place but workable part of the system.

Converting it to a Level*5 works, as you can't really get Con built up to 60 too much faster than that anyways, and having Con do some of the damage mitigation finishes rounding out the effect. It's the best I've ever come up with.

And yeah, I have no idea why Dexterity gives so little Defense. Some talents do directly multiply it, so making it too high could be bad... but 0.5 seems totally safe. 0.3's just odd.

[HousePet]

I'm just worried it will end up becoming something that either everyone takes, or nobody takes.

[SageAcrin]

I don't remember the last winner I saw that didn't 5 it. It's a bit late on that score, though I appreciate wanting to improve that situation.

Then again, I don't remember the last physical fighter winner I saw that didn't 5 their primary weapon's Mastery.

I won't argue that it's overly central and a tax to points...just, that's a thing that some classes do, and there's enough points to go around that it does function. And that all the alternatives I've been able to think of are worse.

(I even tried to figure out a way to instead reapply the resistances as bonuses to various equips. I gave up after about five minutes, on the realization that I would be digging myself into hours upon hours of work, with no guarantee that I could even properly reproduce the impact on equips without over or underpowering them, or both simultaneously in different and exciting ways...)

[Parcae2]

I quite like the equipment swapping minigame:

1. In SVN, it limits the imbalance-ness of Swift Hands a little bit, although SH still probably needs another nerf.
2. The game already has way too much transmog fodder (like most RPGs, although having the chest at least streamlines the process), and the equipment swapping minigame adds utility to a few otherwise useless egos.

Probably the biggest problem with the system is the way it hurts undead and antimagic characters. The loss of heroism infusions makes it a LOT harder for UD to get the prodigy they want at level 30, and first-time antimagic winners have to feel annoyed at beating the game and still being unable to read the inscriptions in the Fortress.

[b0rsuk]

Currently, Prodigy stat requirements are almost meaningless. Especially Willpower, Cunning and Magic are easy to raise with items. It feels like you're shopping for prodigies (and grindging damage for them!!!), not earning them. I even had a winning Doomed with I Can Carry The World, about 7 stat points put into Str.

[Doctornull]

Currently, Prodigy stat requirements are almost meaningless. Especially Willpower, Cunning and Magic are easy to raise with items. It feels like you're shopping for prodigies (and grindging damage for them!!!), not earning them. I even had a winning Doomed with I Can Carry The World, about 7 stat points put into Str.

So basically...

- There's a Prodigy which is best for weakling packrats.
- You got it as a weakling Doomed.
- You got it by being a packrat.

... yeah, maybe we don't need a Prodigy like that.

[HousePet]

"I am doomed to carry your burdens..."

[Mewtarthio]

Wait, why on earth would a Doomed want that prodigy?

[morganp]

To carry more stat-juggling gear around...?