Prodigy Balance Discussion

[SageAcrin]

Cuts into Eye of the Tiger's gig too much and does way too much for Reaving Combat/Arcane Combat, though.

How about making all spells Off-Balance enemies and all physical attacks Spellshock them?

[Thasero]

I'm not sure that off-tier effects by themselves justify an entire prodigy... Several hybrid class builds can already reliably inflict off-balance and/or spellshock on any target with non-ridiculous saves. Spellcraft adds spellshock to all damaging spells, and that's just a class talent for Archmages. For that matter, archmages could take the prodigy as well and then inflict both cross-tiers on every spell.


Although "arcane" is in the name, it's not really a gimme to make it deal bonus damage with arcane as the type. All the hybrid classes deal different elemental damage normally:

- Sun Paladin - light
- Arcane Blade - arcane, fire, lightning
- Reaver - acid, blight, darkness
- Temporal Warden - temporal
- Shadowblade - darkness

... and you would want the prodigy to "fit" for any of those classes.

For the "strike elemental weakness" version, what if rather than converting damage, it just gives you an extra hit in the chosen element type? Then there's no special case for physical damage and it doesn't "steal" damage from your favored damage type on talents that convert your weapon damage. It's like Flexible Combat, but instead of a free unarmed attack it's a free elemental attack - and it works with ranged weapons and staves. The power can depend on your Magic stat to keep the link with Magic improving your combat.

So:

Code: Select all

You have learned to channel arcane power through your weapons, inflicting terrible harm on enemies vulnerable to destructive magic.  When you strike an enemy, you have an X% chance to inflict an additional 100% weapon damage as the non-physical, non-mind element against which your target is weakest.

The chance increases with your Magic stat.  The damage can critical, based on your spell critical rate, and the bonus can trigger from melee weapons, ranged weapons, and the Channel Staff spell.

One downside, though: Reavers would get to keep their damage bonus stacking, because activating Vimsense will make everything weak against blight.

[SageAcrin]

Way too good with the physical end and doesn't help the magical end at all.

I'm trying to think of some way to make thematic on_hits as a prodigy but it's sorta hard to make work without it being boring.

Wait, we've been thinking in terms of conversion; Why not just have all spells add 10% additional damage in Physical, and all physicals deal 10% additional damage in the element that the target's weakest to? (Or maybe just Arcane?)

Actually, the former would be enough, since the Magic multiplier's already added to physicals.

[HousePet]

Would that be different enough from Superpower?

[Doctornull]

Cuts into Eye of the Tiger's gig too much and does way too much for Reaving Combat/Arcane Combat, though.

Actually it does NOTHING for Reaving Combat, since those guys have only spells, but whatever.

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Honestly I wouldn't mind just ripping off Superpower. It's a fine effect. Bonus to weapons and bonus to Spellpower, everyone likes Spellpower. Maybe differentiate it a bit by splitting the weapon bonus into Accuracy, since Reavers and Arcane Blades may not have enough points to put much in Dexterity.

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Another idea: reward mixed-mode combat explicitly.
- When you (hit | crit) with a weapon attack, your spells gain +x resistance penetration for 5 rounds.
- When you (hit | crit) with a damaging spell, your weapon attacks deal +x damage of the same type for 5 rounds.

[HousePet]

Superpower is a bit boring, so we could start with the two prodigies identical and then mutate each in a different way.

[SageAcrin]

Random thought: Make Hidden Resources actually give you some portion of the cost of talents used during it, instead of just negating their cost.

For example, have it grant you 33% of a talent's resource cost. If a spell would normally cost 30 Mana, it would instead grant you 10 Mana when you cast it.

This fits reasonably thematically with the theme of it(finding hidden resources to use), and makes it even more useful for the limited target audience; Now it acts as a resource surge as well as a temporary negation, and has obvious synergy with using extremely costly talents.

Thoughts?

[Crim, The Red Thunder]

Taking a look at the spreadsheet, the listed opinions on lucky day seem to indicate that it's on the very low end of borderline. Outside halfling evasion abuse, it doesn't seem to offer really... anything.

Would it be out of character for it to add a significant +crit mod? (Say, +100% damage to crits, given that this IS a prodigy, and so few characters would want it as is now.) Lucky criticals would hit harder then regular criticals, finding that extra chink in the armor that lets it hit harder... Thematically, I suppose I can see it. Would this make it more competitive, and less borderline, or is something else needed?

[Thasero]

I'm not sure that granting resources can really work as a prodigy. As a practical matter, most classes will solve their resource problems by late game without any special effort, just from the normal capacity bonuses you get at level-up time; level 50 characters just don't run out of stamina / vim / negative energy / etc. so often that it's worth spending effort to get more (or spend less). At worst, you get hit by Mana Clash and need to spend a few turns recovering.

Suggestion: What if Hidden Resources gave you a passive "die at -X life" bonus, and your talents don't cost any resources while you're in negative life? The "no resource cost" would be a nice-to-have bonus on top of the boost to your effective total HP. It fits with the theme of the prodigy and its unlock condition, since you benefit specifically when you're in the state that originally let you qualify for the unlock.

Some more comments from playing on development builds:

- Bloodspring triggering at 15% feels right - high enough that it doesn't trigger all the time, but low enough that you don't have to get shellacked before it does anything. One oddity: Skeletons do not bleed, and shouldn't be able to qualify for the ability!
- Fungal Blood is still not very impressive. Magical detrimental effects are the least common and least threatening effects, and if I wanted to heal myself with an infusion, I could already do that by equipping a healing infusion. It's useful, certainly, but it doesn't feel like a signature ability; it feels like having an extra inscription slot with half of a magical wild infusion and half of a healing infusion.

[HousePet]

I think that Lucky Day is fine, if a bit bland.
Added crit mod would be good though.

[HousePet]

Thought about Arcane Combat/Superpower some more.
How does something like this sound?

Superpower:
+30% strength to mindpower.
+30% willpower to weapon modifier.
+10% physical penetration.

Arcane Combat:
+30% strength to spellpower.
+30% magic to physical power.
Free attack on spell cast. (like Reavers do)

[Crim, The Red Thunder]

Would this stack with existing effects? And an extra attack of what element? Reavers do blight on their extra, should this extra be physical or arcane? Or something else?

[HousePet]

This would replace existing effects.

As for the attack, I was thinking it could be arcane, but as various potential users wouldn't normally do arcane, it might be better to be left as whatever the weapon does.

[Doctornull]

Arcane Combat:
+30% strength to spellpower.
+30% magic to physical power.
Free attack on spell cast. (like Reavers do)

Nah, there's no way we should allow a Reaver to double-dip.

Also, Shadowblades exist. The current +50% Magic to weapon damage works for Dex-based classes just fine, even for some crazy future Arcane Archer, and might even work for all-Magic, no-Strength staff-bonkers.

Also^2, the current Reaver implementation works really brokenly with Arcane Combat -- it's a notable Adventurer trick, since Arcane Combat will proc a free spell, then Corrupted Strength will proc a free attack, and that attack can trigger yet another spell. Every time a spell procs, you get a free attack, and every attack grants a chance at another free spell. They don't currently interact outside of Adventurers, so it's not currently a bug, but it's something that would need fixing if that were to be a prodigy mechanic.

[Crim, The Red Thunder]

Already fixed, several versions back. Unless it broke again afterwards, in which case I'm about to run an adventurer for an easy win.