Dual-Wield Crossbows

[MarginalMagus]

With all the hay made of dual-wield short staves, I've realized what a time warden's true dream item should be: dual-wieldable crossbows, like this nice lady's.

They could be artifacts, acquired via one of the (awesome) time-quests, or perhaps a late-game farportal-style mission initiated from the somewhat barren time warden starter zone. They could also be normal items, with tiers and such--but they would be of limited use to other classes.

Ideally (in the TW candyland version of TOME4) they would be treated as a single bow with around 70-60% attack speed, for the purposes of all bow-related talents, but with the ability to use flurry and other dual-wield skills as independent entities. They could include a penalty to the reload talent (ideally such that nothing short of a category point could maintain level 5), and flurry et. al. would use lots of arrows, so they would probably be reasonably balanced--especially since heavy investment in both dual-wielding and bows shuts out the stronger time skills.

In conclusion: I have no idea what I'm doing, but man is this game fun. Good work all!

[Crim, The Red Thunder]

While we're at it, let's get crossbows added as a base item type as well. And some trees for talents for them. Dual wielding a smaller hand crossbow type deal makes perfect sense, especially for an assassin type character. (I have no idea where that image is from, but D&D or at least the forgotten realms books by Salvatore did that idea first.) Small hand crossbows could theoretically even be of a folding model that could be concealed down a pantsleg, or in a pocket.

Of course now, I'm thinking of the matrix scene 'guns... lots of guns' with dozens of assorted crossbows being pulled out... of every possible location.

TL;DR

Crossbows good. Not sure we need to create a throwaway dual wielding bow type item for one class, but adding single handed (and possibly dual wielded) crossbows would be quite good. Classic tome had crossbows, I see no reason not to bring them back. It's not like it's high technology or something.

[MarginalMagus]

While I'm sure you are more qualified than me to say (I see you everywhere! Hi!) I thought a one-off item set would be a nice easy stepping stone, to make sure the mechanic was both fun and balanced--and I wanted to step on minimal toes. As a side note, I'd be happy to try and do this, but I don't even know where to start to learn addon development. If someone wants to direct me, I'd be happy to dedicate a few weekends to a proof-of-concept goofball item set, named Marginal and Magus. Or Aura and Dawn. Or Darkgod Is Great and Darkgod Is Cool. Btw is darkgod french? I listened to his episode of roguelike radio and was pleasantly surprised to hear a familiar accent.

[SageAcrin]

Well, there was a small little addition added to the depository for supporting ranged weapon dualwielding.

So clearly DarkGod has some idea here.

[Crim, The Red Thunder]

I'm hardly more qualfied to say, I just seem to see too many artifacts that are 'iffy' on the class they're designed for, and worthless to everything else. An artifact that works only on time wardens at all, and only if built in a special way just seems off somehow. But adding some basic crossbows (heavy 2handers) and hand versions (light 1handers) would be more then good. And then tack more onto that with several artifacts of both kinds, and boom. You've expanded the archer class, the time warden class, maybe even the rogue class, created some new talents, and brought variety to a great many builds.

And oui, DarkGod is french. Which might account for some of the clunkier english phrases in the game. (Understandable. Different languages would phrase things in a different grammatical manner)

As for ranged dual wielding, I have no idea where addon coding would work. If I could code addons, I have a number if ideas (beyond offering help to Zizzo) I'd love to see, but I'm at least as lost (maybe more) then you.

Edit: And now I want a quirky set of joke weapons named 'Darkgod's Open Hand' and 'Darkgod's Closed Fist'. Gah, can't get that idea out of my head.

[MarginalMagus]

You're right. In the meantime, though, I want to try to make a pair for the hell of it. Can anyone point me to a guide or similar for addon making?

Edit: new plan--I'm going to take apart the crossbow addon that exists and try to change it.

[Infinitum]

Just chiming in on the note that Crossbows akimbo looked stupid when Diablo 3 did it as well, and makes a further mockery of any attempt to ground the gameworld in anything resembling historical accuracy. Please leave it out alongside the chainmail bikinis and weaponized farming implements in the main game please?

That said best of luck with writing the addon.

[Sirrocco]

Crossbows akimbo basically do not function if you have to pull your own strings or nock your own bolts. You can have a pistol crossbow designed to be fired with one hand, but without the support of magic, that's a single shot unless you have the other hand free - and the Temporal Warden schtick of "I just move ridiculously fast" doesn't actually work all that well here.

Also, trying to dual-wield slings is just a poor idea.

Do we really want to add another kind of ammo pouch to the world, along with another kind of launcher? If so (because it's true - crossbows are a reasonably weapon, possibly built slow and powerful to the bow's speed focus) do we really want to add two? (crossbows and hand crossbows are not going to use the same kind of ammo)

It might make sense to have hand crossbows be artifact-only, like whips. Then you could just say that all of them are self-loading, and fire magical/psionic bolts of one sort or another, and possibly even permit them to be used both at range and in melee.

[fuzzynord]

Along with the last two posts, I am also a bit against double crossbows. It just doesn't make sense. If you want duel wielded ranged weapons, we'd need to use gunpowder or magic to have anything practical and not silly.


Nothing against adding crossbows. If crossbows are added, I think the quiver should be made to act as number of loaded bolts . If the quiver is loaded bolts, then the max quiver size would be 1. That way, the act of firing a bolt could be fast (~50% of normal) but you'd only be able to fire one at a time, and reloading would take time. This is how crossbows operate. If anything a 1 turn reload time is faster than a crossbow should be able to be loaded.

We'd need a new type of ammunition because crossbows don't use arrows and the bolts should deal much more damage than arrows do.

If we made heavy crossbows, they could have a perk of being able to pass through 1 or 2 small enemies or get lodged in a larger enemy for bonus damage.

I see crossbows as a potential backup weapon for primarily melee classes. It could be used to soften up a target from a distance before closing for the kill.

(crossbows and hand crossbows are not going to use the same kind of ammo)

I think we might as well allow the large and small crossbows to use the same ammo. We might add a damage penalty for the hand crossbows though.

It might make sense to have hand crossbows be artifact-only, like whips. Then you could just say that all of them are self-loading, and fire magical/psionic bolts of one sort or another, and possibly even permit them to be used both at range and in melee.

That's a valid plan. Especially the melee part. Maybe make the crossbows have bayonets so that a crossbow user isn't defenseless after the first shot.

Edit: And now I want a quirky set of joke weapons named 'Darkgod's Open Hand' and 'Darkgod's Closed Fist'. Gah, can't get that idea out of my head.

That would be neat. Perhaps the Open Hand could buff the user and the Closed Fist could debuff it's target?

[Crim, The Red Thunder]

Crossbows could certainly have more then one bolt at a time. Simple clockwork/gear mechanisms could slot a new bolt into place. Effectively, one could have a 'clip' or 'rack' of bolts. Each shot also moves a gear into place either causing a new bolt to drop into place, or moving the clip itself, either way, slotting a new bolt into place ready to be fired. Would shorten reload time by a bit. And a fair bit could probably be done with draw time based off some sort of pulley system. (Anyone know how those compound bow things work, that lessen the strength required to get the same force out of drawing a bow? Maybe put some slightly more real science into this?)

[Sirrocco]

The compound bows work by putting the hardest draw in the middle - meanign that it's no easier to pull the bow, it's just easier to hold it at full extension. That's not goign to help with crossbows. While it's true that China did come up with a functional repeating crossbow (essentially, lever-powered crossbows with attached ammo resevoirs) they sacrificed penetrating power and range for speed... and at that point, what's the point, really? We already have all the "large resevoir, fast-firing" ranged weapons we need in the sling and the bow. If we're going to go to the trouble of introducing a crossbow, and debasing the loot table with another two item types (for both the crossbows and their ammo) then it ought to have something interesting to offer. It ought to behave in some way differently.

Note: I can almost guarantee that the main drive for hand crossbow is from the desire to play chow-yun-fat, and run around with little pistol stand-ins that have bow-bits stuck on them for period flair like wookie bowcasters. As such, i figured it might be best served as artifacts, that could just act like pistols, and fire magic. If you're going to pander, don't do it half-heartedly, after all. Once you've done that, you should be able to fire them in melee (like pistols). I rather disapprove of the idea of putting bayonets on standard crossbows as if they were rifles. It would make for a lousy melee weapon and a lousy crossbow.

[b0rsuk]

I prefer a 2-handed crossbow for real men.



Some quick info:
- a skilled bowman can release 12 arrows per minute (1 arrow per 5 seconds)
- a skilled crossbowman can release 2 bolts per minute (1 bolt per 30 seconds)
- a chinese repeating crossbow can shoot 10 bolts in 15 seconds (1 bolt per 1.5 seconds)

The weapon used by the ancient militaries was developed into a composite-recurve variety for more power. The recurved repeating crossbow is generally still weaker than the regular recurved crossbow, and was mainly used for sieges or behind shield cover. The Chinese repeating crossbow had a maximum range of 120 meters, with an effective range of 60 meters, far less than that of a non-repeating crossbow.(...)The Chinese Repeating Crossbow was weaker in draw strength compared to other crossbows, so the arrows were often dipped in poison to cause death from even mild wounds.

Source: wikipedia

There's a clear relation between shot power and rate of fire here. Let's say a bow fires 1 arrow per turn. Then I'd like crossbows to fire 1 bolt per 3 or even 5 turns. Then make each bolt POWERFUL to compensate, possibly even piercing through multiple enemies by default like in Nox. Reload can be implemented via a cooldown, or - potentially more fun - reload manually, forcing you to stand still and don't do anything else.

This would make crossbow difficult to use against high numbers of enemies, and you'd have to use special tactics. Which is exactly the point! You are not going to compete with raw power of a crossbow loaded using a crank mechanism. Crossbows had a flatter trajectory than bows, and they were also easier to use (pistol trigger, you don't have to hold the bowstring). You could learn to use a crossbow effectively in 2 weeks and shoot down a mounted knight in full armour, with a lifetime of training. For this reason pope Urban II banned the use of crossbow against Christians - the weapon threatened social order. There was a saying "God created men, but Colt made them equal". It like that with crossbow. It was the medieval noob tube, and captured crossbowmen were often killed and tortured.

And learning the use of longbow often took a lifetime, only the strong could use it, and skeletons of longbowmen were often deformed. This makes longbow the unsophisticated, brute-force weapon.

[Sirrocco]

Worth noting that it's not quite as simple as that (as far as history goes, it's never as simple as that). Well-trained crossbow mercs during the hundred years war were paid about as well as armored knights on horse, were fielded in three-man teams (they had to pay the wages of their assistants) and in those three man teams could fire 8 shots per minute. Similarly, all-metal crossbows actually had better range and penetration than longbows, but were slower to reload.

Hmmm...

Simple way to do it (at least to start) - have a pair of artifact hand crossbows, that fire magical bolts of some sort. These are actually statted as offhand-wieldable exotic melee weapons with a 1/1 activation that attacks at range. Give them a set bonus (or something similar) that causes their activations to trigger each other (or something similar).

More complicated version - actually tie it into the shoot action (and, by extension, enable them for various archer abilities). abilities triggered when wielding both use both.