Prodigy Balance Discussion

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grmblfzzz
Thalore
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Prodigy Balance Discussion

#1 Post by grmblfzzz »

This will be a post discussing the issues relating to the balance of Prodigies, similar to the recent Item Balance discussion (http://forums.te4.org/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=38301). I'm working on the spreadsheet I threw together at the moment, and will edit this with it once I get it somewhat thrown together.

EDIT: Here's the link to the prodigy spreadsheet, will be filled out as people contribute :) https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... sp=sharing (Now with the ability to edit! :) )

I'm doing it this way because these are the stand-out concerns, and thus the most critical issues for achieving any sort of balance with prodigies. The top three dominate all the others for either utility or raw damage output. Also, there are many weaker/useless prodigies... but the recommendations and fixes for them would be more judgement calls/game design questions, so I would like people's input on them. Sadly, probably about half the prodigies are unusable in that they're dominated for whatever they do (Offense/defense/etc) by at least two others. And, of course, while there are stand-out top tier ones, this also limits your reasonable choices.

Overpowered Prodigies

In order, the ones that are the biggest balance concerns are:

Swift Hands
Temporal Form
Mental Tyranny

Swift hands: There are just too many ways that swapping out your entire inventory every turn is overpowered, and bad from an overall balance perspective as it makes balancing items themselves problematic. Swap to max temporal resist when damage smearing starts ticking hard without losing turns, +move items when you need to escape, weapons each turn for special effects, spellpower gear to use an item that depends on it, etc.

I believe making it once per turn would solve any overt abuse, while still leaving it powerful enough to be worth consideration.

Temporal Form: The problems with this prodigy are exacerbated by, but not dependent upon, swift hands. This is by far the highest damage prodigy, for several reasons. First, like mental tyrany, converting all dmg to one type and allowing easier stacking (I'll discuss that with Mental Tyranny). More importantly, when your highest dmg is converted to Temporal plus the boost, you can then swap out just a few pieces of bonus, say, blight dmg gear for +crit or +temporal gear. Telos's top half -> corpathus, Armor -> temporal augmentation robe, trinket -> bladed rift, etc. It just allows ridiculous burst. Also, temporary bonuses aren't lost, such as corrupters temp bonus blight damage on crit, which allow an extra ~50% blight damage -> temporal form, and you just get the boosted damage for all 10 turns of it.

Recommendation for this would be to make your boosted temporal damage reactive to the damage type that it got boosted from. Such that, say, your 50% bonus blight damage buff wears off, lose 50% temporal damage as well, etc. I would also recommend reducing the bonuses somewhat as it already gives you various immunities/spells (they should be buffed, though)/consistent type dmg.

Mental Tyranny: This is by far the second highest damaging prodigy. Both because it allows you to focus on only 1 damage type, and also because it functionally just gives you a strait 40% damage increase. 40% added on to late game crits is way, way more than any of the on-use damage prodigies.

For this, I think that the all 1 type of damage is fairly huge, and really the key/interesting thing. I'd suggest that the bonuses get toned down significantly. They should be weaker than Temporal forms bonuses, certainly, as Temporal is an on use with a timer/cooldown, where Mental Tyranny is a sustain.


Underpowered Prodigies

These were the prodigies for which the consensus was that they definitely need some love.

I Can Carry The World!
Through The Crowd <--- worst two for sure

Superpower
Fungal Blood
Tricks of the Trade


There were many others that are clearly borderline, and would require some boost/change of some sort to make them compelling options. Suggestions and such are on the spreadsheet :) To be fair though, many are right on the borderline of being fun and usable, just a little to weak/bland/cooldown restrictive/etc. Overall pretty interesting ideas.
Last edited by grmblfzzz on Sun Jun 30, 2013 8:08 pm, edited 5 times in total.

supermini
Uruivellas
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Re: Prodigy Balance Discussion

#2 Post by supermini »

Swift Hands: My suggestion would be to make swapping items take 1/xth of a turn (1/3 maybe?). Could possibly be abused with a huge global speed buff, but what isn't?

Temporal Form: I don't have enough experience with using this to comment. Is this genuinely too powerful or is it just bugged with how it calculates stuff?

Mental Tyranny: This is a powerful prodigy - I dunno if it's too powerful. Maybe lose the penetration bonus, as mind resistance is not common on mobs anyway?
<darkgod> all this fine balancing talk is boring
<darkgod> brb buffing boulder throwers

grmblfzzz
Thalore
Posts: 133
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 7:53 pm

Re: Prodigy Balance Discussion

#3 Post by grmblfzzz »

@supermini: for swift hands, I think that would be a reasonable solution as well.

In general... It might not be super apparent to most just how imbalanced these prodigies are. Swift Hands is only a problem if you're willing to be a packrat/micromanage everthing... yet it's so powerful if you bother to do so that it's clearly game breaking. For the other two, the problem is that they will far outclass any other prodigy related to damage. I mean, far, far, outclass them. Making everything you do 1 damage type is already amazing for like 80% of the classes, so you can stack just mind pen/damage. So, for instance, if you're a corrupter or archmage, you don't have just a small fraction of your spells super powered while the others are weak, but all of your spells superpowered.

Additionally, say a reasonably obtainable crit for some super ability at end game is ~8k without any of these (can go much higher, to be sure with them). Adding ~40% (not quite, but close enough) damage to this just obsoletes any reasonable normal prodigy.

SageAcrin
Sher'Tul Godslayer
Posts: 1884
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Re: Prodigy Balance Discussion

#4 Post by SageAcrin »

I'd be okay with Swift Hands getting lowered to a small fraction of a turn, instead of no turn. 1/3, 1/4, something like that, so that it's not optimal to dump your entire inventory at once.

Temporal Form...I had this discussion before, but I feel like most of the current abuse has a time cost. Though, yes, Swift Hands can negate that(again, this is arguably more of a Swift Hands issue, though...). Regardless, I'm fine with removing the non-reactivity, if it's possible, just because it's very non-intuitive.

For the rest...well, it has a cooldown and is temporary, and there is a very real cost to that; I think the rest of its bonuses are good. Too few active Prodigies are really good, and I don't feel like Temporal Form is overcentralizing if it becomes more reactive.

Lots and lots of mage classes have skills designed to up the element piercing of a primary element, and utilizing Temporal Form essentially means not getting that, as it doesn't translate that to Temporal. (This is even worse for Corruptors/Reavers, who have Vimsense, which actively lowers a specific resist and can mean even more damage than piercing does.) So there's a notable cost to running it.

Mental Tyranny...yeah okay; I don't agree with 40%(30% piercing is no 30% damage bonus until very late, and only if the enemy rolls good Allres...it's mostly that kind of damage boost against Elandar), but it doesn't matter, because I agree with the general point.

It's already been nerfed three or four times since its conceptualization, but I think I underestimated it badly when I first came up with the idea. How about +10% damage/no piercing?

Edit: Also, about Carry The World, I've had a simple thought recently.

Have it grant +20 Strength too.

Nice, simple bonus that fits it thematically and happens to be a nice, totally brainless physical damage boost for those that don't want to think about their Prodigies.

Crim, The Red Thunder
Sher'Tul Godslayer
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Re: Prodigy Balance Discussion

#5 Post by Crim, The Red Thunder »

Losing mental tyranny's piercing would hurt characters that do almost exclusive mind damage anyway, such as doomed. Without that piercing, your practically halving the damage output doomed can offer, and they're not the highest dps class to begin with. Probably hurts caster mindslayers as well, though I'm not hugely familiar with that class.
Currently playing under the name Aura of the Dawn 4 down, 227 to go!
Proud author of Orc Pit Restoration Project, Faction Allies, Dwarven Adventurer addons
SadistSquirrel wrote:DarkGod has two arms, one with an opened hand, one with a closed fist. You got the fist.

SageAcrin
Sher'Tul Godslayer
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Re: Prodigy Balance Discussion

#6 Post by SageAcrin »

It can be turned off.

If it was a passive, that'd be a valid point.

(Also, isn't Doomed basically a three way even split of physical/darkness/mind?)

Crim, The Red Thunder
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Re: Prodigy Balance Discussion

#7 Post by Crim, The Red Thunder »

Almost everything I used was mind based. The darkness tree is darkness, but it's... bad. Not effective combat at all. I can't recall off the top of my head if 'force' was mind or physical. I thought the former, which is why mental tyranny seemed a gimme as a prodigy choice.
Currently playing under the name Aura of the Dawn 4 down, 227 to go!
Proud author of Orc Pit Restoration Project, Faction Allies, Dwarven Adventurer addons
SadistSquirrel wrote:DarkGod has two arms, one with an opened hand, one with a closed fist. You got the fist.

SageAcrin
Sher'Tul Godslayer
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Re: Prodigy Balance Discussion

#8 Post by SageAcrin »

Force of Will is entirely physical.

Yeah, I can see how you'd think that if it was Mind, though.

grmblfzzz
Thalore
Posts: 133
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 7:53 pm

Re: Prodigy Balance Discussion

#9 Post by grmblfzzz »

Look at the spreadsheet! All sorts of goodies and descriptions/recommendations added!

Also, for mental tyrany: I stick by my initial post, it's just head and sholders above the next damage talent (aside from TF). I would still suggest lowering the bonuses, but the pen is kind of better/incentive to get it. Make it something like 10%/10%, or something along those lines.

grmblfzzz
Thalore
Posts: 133
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 7:53 pm

Re: Prodigy Balance Discussion

#10 Post by grmblfzzz »

Added some of the stand-out bad ones to initial post. I think many of the suggestions given for the sheet for lots of the borderline ones are good, though. Even if you buffed the standout bads, nerfed the standout goods... lots of the rest are still either dominated/way too specific/neither fun OR good.

Although, I will say that overall the design for them is pretty solid. Lots of cool ideas, and lots of things that could be fun with just a little tweaking.

SageAcrin
Sher'Tul Godslayer
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Re: Prodigy Balance Discussion

#11 Post by SageAcrin »

Thoughts on the weaker/argued to be weaker Prodigies;

Weapon!/Massive Blow: 8 CD, sure, why not. 12 is long enough for enemies to hit you multiple times with it, 8 doesn't make enemies with either all that much more dangerous, and does more for you than them.

Steamroller: Negate(or at the very least, halve, but I really think negate is best here, you can't spam Rush against single targets!) the Stamina cost on Rush when you have this. Niche still but absolutely hilarious and has synergy with low CD Rush setups, not competition.

I Can Carry The World!: Like I said, nice basic strength bonus. 20 to 30.

Superpower: I'd be okay with 40% on the Mindpower. Much more and the values start getting ridiculous for one skill, feels like.

Through The Crowd: *dig, rummage, dig*
An idea I got from Torokasi would be to change the name of the skill to Pack Mentality. Then have the skill give physical/mental/spellpower bonuses for each party member within radius 2/3, both to the summons and your character. Sort of like a friendlies version of the Halfling skill Militant Mind. Maybe +5 to each power both ways?
From back when 1.0 was about to be released.

Windblade: Sure, up the radius. If it's higher, it can be used as a quasi-ranged physical as well as crowd control, which is nice.

Roll With It: Yeah, more of a movement speed boost might be nice. I think I initially suggested a 300% here.

Bloodspring: I'd be okay with the proc being 15%.

Never Stop Running: I suggested this be dropped to 10 a move back ages ago, but...some people swear by the 20 version as a way to easily close short gaps. I'unno. (Funny enough it works with Endless Resources, I believe.)

Fungal Blood: (Con/2) chance to cure a random status whenever you use it, maybe? I like the status cure idea, but making it reliable makes it too dominate(as it means every infusion you use suddenly becomes a reliable Wild too...).

Arcane Might: Might be boring, but some of them should be, so that people have easy choices they can make rather than getting locked into decision paralysis. It's fine to me.

Revisionist History: "You know, this is kinda weak. But trying to buff it defensively rams into Precognition. So how do you buff it?"

Answer: Buff it offensively in a way that's thematic. While triggered, give it a rad 5 (20+Magic) Temporal damage storm effect that also does 5% of the difference between the target's max life and current life, every turn. Basically a storm version of Echoes from the Past. Fits it perfectly, and makes it a combo offense/defense skill.

Hidden Resources: Yeah, more of an element of how classes are constructed, than anything. Best answer might just be to up the CD/duration, so that you can dump full bars of resource on people without hinderance; Five turns just isn't enough time to do that.

Lucky Day: It's +15% or so crits, IIRC. Not bad for offense at all, though second fiddle usually.

Unbreakable Will: Yeah, I've never actually managed to justify this. Some people swear by it, though, and I'm generally good against status, so I'unno.

Fast as Lightning:
-Fast As Lightning:

Another really cool concept...that mostly just turns your Movement infusions into CPD+ infusions.

This isn't bad, but they're already basically pretty good-it's not a huge jump.

Of course, there's an easy fix-have this add a status that adds +10% movement speed to your character for every turn that you move(and only move, no other actions), capping at +100%.

That way, even when you're just trucking around normally, as long as you get a good amount of time to run, you're still really, really fast. Plus, you still get better Movement infusions!

Also, a lot of Movement infusions don't hit 800%. So this would mean you could still use the effect, even with lesser Movement infusions. Or be a Rampaging, Surging Cursed and just run through walls, which is also pretty cool considering that you need a running start for it.
Worldly Knowledge: It's RNG protection. Of course it's useless on Insane, where things need to go at least somewhat right. On Normal, it allows you to salvage problems on any run, rather than restart. Within that, it doesn't need a buff, to me; Different mentality that it's representing.

Tricks of the Trade: Legitimate question, has anyone out of the people discussing this actually ran it for the Invis effect? Because I found that unbelievably good on Normal, to the point of being questionably overpowered. The Stealth effect works fine on Normal and is worth running it for, but usual Nightmare/Insane issues there. However, I don't think Invis sight even scales all that well on higher difficulties...

grmblfzzz
Thalore
Posts: 133
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 7:53 pm

Re: Prodigy Balance Discussion

#12 Post by grmblfzzz »

I pretty much agree with all those proposed changes SageAcrin. I'll admit that I might think some are worse than they are because I just don't really have experience on Normal and my general playstyle (thus my thanks to supermini and shibari for pitching in!), so for things like stealth I can only really comment on what I'm familiar with. Also, you're right that passive bonuses are fine to have. It's just that you kind of have to be careful because there's like... 5 prodigies that basically just give passive dps boosts, so they have to be fairly balanced or do something to differentiate themselves besides raw power. Anyway, a few things to note:
Worldly Knowledge: It's RNG protection. Of course it's useless on Insane, where things need to go at least somewhat right. On Normal, it allows you to salvage problems on any run, rather than restart. Within that, it doesn't need a buff, to me; Different mentality that it's representing.
Agreed here, I'm a huge fan of anything that reduces RNG. However, I just thought of what I think is an amazing way to change it without boosting it's power. I think that the restrictions should be removed, so that you could learn escort tree's you wouldn't normally have access too! It makes sense with the name/theme, and would open up build possibilities. Also, would make it more tempting as a target for a prodigy point as it's something you couldn't do otherwise. I strongly endorse this proposed change!


For tricks of the trade... overall it's really less of an issue with whatever it does than the cost, in my opinion. Not siding with the merchant is just kind of one of the most glaring of fairly minor issues with the game. Just it being literally the only gold dump makes it not much of a "choice".

SageAcrin
Sher'Tul Godslayer
Posts: 1884
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:52 pm

Re: Prodigy Balance Discussion

#13 Post by SageAcrin »

Agreed here, I'm a huge fan of anything that reduces RNG. However, I just thought of what I think is an amazing way to change it without boosting it's power. I think that the restrictions should be removed, so that you could learn escort tree's you wouldn't normally have access too! It makes sense with the name/theme, and would open up build possibilities. Also, would make it more tempting as a target for a prodigy point as it's something you couldn't do otherwise. I strongly endorse this proposed change!
Sure...sure, why not? I can't think of anyone that really spirals out of control that way.

I mean, Mobility is good on a Shadowblade, but that's been technically possible anyways. No one has done it, because it's a pill, but.
For tricks of the trade... overall it's really less of an issue with whatever it does than the cost, in my opinion. Not siding with the merchant is just kind of one of the most glaring of fairly minor issues with the game. Just it being literally the only gold dump makes it not much of a "choice".
I think that's mostly psychological...on average, if you're not farming or anything, you get two randarts from a merchant a run. The actual gameplay impact from that could be amazing...or terrible.

Being able to give that up, for some niches, for a strong and unique impact isn't really too bad. It's mostly just having the big pile of cash staring at you. I'd like to see a different way to dump cash, too(optimally, low end skill rewards), but.

grmblfzzz
Thalore
Posts: 133
Joined: Fri Nov 25, 2011 7:53 pm

Re: Prodigy Balance Discussion

#14 Post by grmblfzzz »

True enough with the merchant, but I still think the prodigy would have to be definitively good (much better than it's current arguable goodness but probably okay-ness on fairly narrow class options). I mean, if there's not going to be any changes to the Merch quest, and this prodigy is seen as a way to compensate for it... It has to be better than 1) The probability of a usable merch artifact with, say, 2 tries on average, AND 2) better than the other options that the prodigy point would have been used for. A ways to go, methinks.

I'd like to make a subtler point in relation to my proposed Worldly Knowledge change (Removing requirements so you could get escort trees unavailable otherwise, just in case someone didn't catch it!). This relates to how I think of the scaling/balance issues with certain classes on different difficulties. I don't actually think any underlying mechanics need to/should be changed, I think the issue with the classes that struggle in higher difficulties is lack of general utility/escape. The tree's available through worldly knowledge are exactly that kind (field control/chronomancy/divination/mobility for example). They're full of helpful tools that would help compensate for those that lack them, which I think is all that's really required to level the playing field to the extent that the game remains at least doable for all classes as difficulty ramps up.

Elkan
Archmage
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Re: Prodigy Balance Discussion

#15 Post by Elkan »

I was thinking of rolling another mindslayer (I love the class thematically) And had some thoughts on prodigies

1: Do superpower and Arcane might apply their bonuses to telekineticaly wielded weapons? if not why not?

2: How does Superpowers will bonus apply interact with psiblades, I'm guessing it applies separately after the psiblade modifiers as a flat 30% mod..It might make superpower more interesting and useful, if this was further modified by psiblades, potentially making them a lot more deadly

3: Another potentially fun thing to do with superpower that would give Mindslayers their own "thing" for a prodigy. increase the range of beyond the flesh to 2. As your mental strength allows you to reach further with your third hand.

let me know what you guys think!

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