Character Competency: Balance / Math / Expected Numbers?

[Doctornull]

Is there a guide to the expected "power" of the character as he levels up?

Like, what kind of damage range is expected, what kind of damage he can expect to take, what are good or insufficient values for accuracy / defense / armor / penetration throughout the game?

I'm thinking of making an addon, and I don't want to imbalance the game by accident.

Thanks!

[Mewtarthio]

It varies wildly by character. Note that classes aren't even balanced against each other: A class is only "unbalanced" if it's so good that there's no challenge in playing it (or so bad that it's too frustrating to play).

[Doctornull]

A class is only "unbalanced" if it's so good that there's no challenge in playing it (or so bad that it's too frustrating to play).

Right. So what's the viable range?

"No challenge" and "too frustrating" are exactly what I want to avoid.

[jotwebe]

You could check in the character vault. And/Or level up some existing classes to 50 in debug mode - personally I'm not so sure what to expect without items either.

[Hunter]

A class is only "unbalanced" if it's so good that there's no challenge in playing it (or so bad that it's too frustrating to play).

Right. So what's the viable range?

"No challenge" and "too frustrating" are exactly what I want to avoid.

No class is completely unbalanced in either direction as of right now. Opinions on which ones are the most powerful and the weakest will vary by player. For instance, I find the alchemist the easiest to win with, and the brawler the hardest, but the former isn't anything close to a guaranteed win and the latter isn't anywhere close to guaranteed frustration. Some classes are harder to get started with than others (Cursed, for instance, are notoriously slow to develop in the early-to-mid-game) while others start fast, then become less overpowered by mid-game (I find mindslayers fall into this category.) Really, what it comes down to is just enjoying the style of play of a given class and picking that one for that reason. Which, of course, means you have to experiment.

The best measurement of a character has less to do with a general range of power than with how they perform in the dungeons -- applied metrics rather than theoretical ones. Generally speaking, you'll get a good idea of how strong your character is and how well you've chosen to develop his or her skills once you've cleared out the Tier 1 dungeons and are facing an increased level of difficulty. For me, the first significant yardstick of my progress usually comes in the Maze, followed then by the jump in difficulty on the 2nd level of Nur. But it's going to vary by character type or playing style. My alchemists can wipe the floor with most everything up until Dreadfall, while my bulwarks or rogues might struggle in the Sandworm Lair before getting some choicer equipment, more potent runes/infusions, and higher levels of certain skills. While lots of dungeons aren't mandatory, it's really a good idea to just do them all to best ensure maximum progress toward surviving later.

[supermini]

If you are a new or relatively new player, my suggestion would be:

Bulwark
Solipsist
Berserker
Archmage
Alchemist

roughly in this order. Alchemist would be higher but I find them so boring I can't really recommend them to anyone.

Avoid rogue types and brawlers until you are a bit more experienced.

[SageAcrin]

I'll toss in votes for Oozemancer and Doomed to that list, somewhere above Archmage.

These classes are really hard to totally screw up, most notably. Low, yet good, Class point options means that even if you're picking skills at random, there's only so bad they can get. It's nice. That they're good classes doesn't hurt.

Otherwise(and with the statement that Alchemist doesn't bore me and that I recommend it first for any newbie; First class I got East with!), I largely agree with that list. Archmage is strong, but it's easy to screw them up at least somewhat, and their true strength comes in part from a lot of very careful play. (On the other hand, they are strong, so they should be on the list. )

[supermini]

I have a soft spot for archmages, it's the class I first got to the east with.
They are the most complex of all the choices but they have built in utility abilities and escape mechanisms.

Your point about low number of places to put class points is very interesting though, I never thought of it that way.

[greycat]

I'm thinking of making an addon, and I don't want to imbalance the game by accident.

Like, what kind of damage range is expected, what kind of damage he can expect to take, what are good or insufficient values for accuracy / defense / armor / penetration throughout the game?

I've rearranged your sentences here, because I think all the other replies skipped over the "I'm developing an addon" part and assumed you were trying to play the game and survive. (It doesn't help that you posted in the general discussion forum instead of the development forum.)

It's incredibly difficult to say how strong a given talent is, for a number of reasons:

• The weird nonlinear damage formulas
• Synergy with other talents
• Situational usefulness

You could make a talent that gives damage like Assault and claim that it's "balanced" because it's based on a level 12 class talent, but you need to understand that Assault is pretty much the only large single-target damage talent that the Bulwark gets. So if you're throwing a talent which produces that much damage onto a class that has other high-damage talents already, things can explode out of control in a hurry. (Especially if monsters can get this talent and then rip apart the player.)

[comrade raoul]

You could make a talent that gives damage like Assault and claim that it's "balanced" because it's based on a level 12 class talent, but you need to understand that Assault is pretty much the only large single-target damage talent that the Bulwark gets. So if you're throwing a talent which produces that much damage onto a class that has other high-damage talents already, things can explode out of control in a hurry.

You mean like an Arcane Blade?

(My first win was with that character! Assault is pretty sick if it ignores half the target's physical resistance, comes with nine earthen missiles and two to three arcane destruction procs--especially if it's a counterstrike. And with Spectral Shield you can counterstrike anything. My only regret was taking Arcane Might instead of Flexible Combat or Eternal Guard.)

[SageAcrin]

Arcane Blade's a matter of complex synergy in a different way, actually.

AB has a bunch of fairly powerful options, but getting them all up and running in useful synergy is the hard part, since they run off so many stats and they are functionally inferior to other classes until they get them running in tandem.

(To put it another way; AB is a Bulwark that sacrifices Shield Wall for that. Shield Wall's worse long term, but way better short term.)

I've rearranged your sentences here, because I think all the other replies skipped over the "I'm developing an addon" part and assumed you were trying to play the game and survive. (It doesn't help that you posted in the general discussion forum instead of the development forum.)

Yeah, I can't speak for anyone else, but I missed that, honestly.

I don't think there's an easy answer to give for someone that hasn't played the game at least a little, is the long and short of it. Try to look at some classes and get a feel for the general values and playstyle they go for, and what their ups and downs are(like Bulwark having a few strong skills and a lot of supportive ones).

Give it your best guess, and don't be too discouraged if people tell you it's incredibly overpowered or uselessly bad.

("if" is probably more like "when". There's been remarkably few maingame classes that came out balanced on their first try. Don't worry about it too much-effort and listening to feedback is key. )

[supermini]

Yeah, I completely missed that as well, sorry.

My suggestion would be to follow ToME's lead and err on the side of awesome. Making a class that's too powerful is way better than making one that is too weak.

"You can always nerf it later" is a good design motto in my book.

[Sianist]

Saw a reasonable quote the other game on development

"if in doubt about the number, instead of fiddling with +/-5%, either double or half the number and go from there"