Integrating the orcish side fo the storyline

[darkgod]

Dont listen to him Grey, write more lore, always !

PS: doesnt mean an Allure Wars campaign cant be a good idea too

[jotwebe]

You can't create accurate views from the perspectives of a single historian, or set of stories, even more so when it takes place so far back in the past.

I rather like it that all we have are partisan and incomplete accounts of the worlds history. Definitely a feature.

[Crim, The Red Thunder]

Dont listen to him Grey, write more lore, always !

PS: doesnt mean an Allure Wars campaign cant be a good idea too

Yeah, more lore means more depth to the world, I just don't expect it to resolve or add much to this conflict. And yes, more campaigns! Allure wars, future campaign for orcs, Even more future campaign for the Shertul and gods to come back (We KNOW they aren't dead... just... waiting...), another campaign to deal with the fearscape, and we STILL have to get to the other side of the void farportal.

And I enjoy the interesting facets of the societies in Maj'Eyal that hold to these differing points of view. Problem is, one point of view isn't really being expressed well. I get that Dragon Age was a big inspiration, and was filled with mage hate, but they were just as idiotically wrong there.

For that matter, compare the number of non-mage characters that go antimagic. (Granted, that's more a power issue then a moral decision issue.) We see all this crap about the evils of magic, if we're going to offer differing points of view, we need mages spreading the truth about magic to the lands. Throw some flyers about the nature of magic, and why magic isn't evil out as random lore found in dungeons. Surely Angolwen isn't just sitting on it's ass and polishing their staff while Zigur spouts hate? Surely they attempt to spread simple factual truth, even if in secret!

[pheonix89]

Funny thing about the various magical catastrophes - they all are a direct result of someone playing around with various remnants of the Sher'tul. Spellblaze/Cataclysm - messing with the farportal network. The thing the sorcerers are doing - they need the staff of Absorption and they need to access the god that fled the godslayers and was sealed away.

And Sher'tul stuff seems to be just as often power source unknown as anything else. And power source unknown also includes some of the freakiest weapons - like that sword that powers up when you crit or kill things, does blight damage and releases some kind of blob monster after a while - or IIRC the one that can steal talents.

Guess the real problem is screwing around with magitech made by people that could kill gods without knowing what precisely you are doing.

[Crim, The Red Thunder]

Funny thing about the various magical catastrophes - they all are a direct result of someone playing around with various remnants of the Sher'tul. Spellblaze/Cataclysm - messing with the farportal network. The thing the sorcerers are doing - they need the staff of Absorption and they need to access the god that fled the godslayers and was sealed away.

And Sher'tul stuff seems to be just as often power source unknown as anything else. And power source unknown also includes some of the freakiest weapons - like that sword that powers up when you crit or kill things, does blight damage and releases some kind of blob monster after a while - or IIRC the one that can steal talents.

Guess the real problem is screwing around with magitech made by people that could kill gods without knowing what precisely you are doing.

Definite point. OTOH, consider that your adventurer is in control of a fortress of devastating 'unknown' wrath, capable of orbital bombardment? Or your rod of recall. Yeah, Sher'tul powers are unknown, but we never do see the ziguranth complain about them. Why the hell did I never notice this before? *facepalms*

[Grey]

Yeah, more lore means more depth to the world, I just don't expect it to resolve or add much to this conflict.

Which is good. A proper conflict is one that is unresolved ;)

And I enjoy the interesting facets of the societies in Maj'Eyal that hold to these differing points of view. Problem is, one point of view isn't really being expressed well. I get that Dragon Age was a big inspiration, and was filled with mage hate, but they were just as idiotically wrong there.

This is why we need the Zigur orphanage! *pokes DarkGod*

Surely Angolwen isn't just sitting on it's ass and polishing their staff while Zigur spouts hate? Surely they attempt to spread simple factual truth, even if in secret!

I think they do have a certain hand in that already. The "apprentice" for instance, encouraging people to collect magic artifacts. They likely have a role in spreading the use of alchemy and runes. Little things in the shadows, making subtle changes to society's perceptions. A blunt "magic is goooood!" note would likely produce a backlash, but small changes over time can help change the world.

At the same time though I think Angolwen has gotten into a somewhat introverted state, more caring about the academic nature of magic and their own self-interests, with a very rigid idea about staying hidden and secret. Doubtless there are some amongst them who tire of this and wish to express themselves more freely in the world. Indeed, the lore notes there were already two of their brightest students that left because of such motivations! I wonder what happened to those entrepreneurial mages...

[Crim, The Red Thunder]

I'm not saying they should plant a basic 'magic is good' flyers everywhere. I was envisioning for an 'educational' approach. 'The truth about Mages: Evil or not?' and address all these silly Zigur myths and points. 'History of magic' and cover major events mages have been a part of, things they've done. (without glossing over the evil. Yes, some crazy individuals may have caused the spellblaze, but we have spent tireless generations attempting to clean up that mess.)

Something that the quasi-educated (those educated enough to read, at any rate) could look through, and then go home and think over, seeds of doubt and free thinking planted in there mind. Maybe they still think to themselves, "Mage lies, magic is evil Ziguranth is right." or maybe they begin to look at the problem objectively and draw their own conclusions. I'm not saying mages are outright going to just plug themselves. I'm looking at something designed to place intellectual knowledge out there in the hopes of educating the public about there real purpose. (Without just ignoring the mistakes of there past, which would be as bad as Zigur ignoring there good.)

For that matter, I envision mages forming schools. After all, no-one else in the land seems to be highly educated... I could see mages secretly founding a school and teaching little children. (Not teaching them magic, just as a service to the community, though if you could teach them tolerance, that's a step in the right direction) We already have the town of Last Hope accepting a mage that came to town, obviously the public doesn't ALL buy Zigur's nonsense, so clearly we simply need to illustrate this point more. (Granted, given his actions, Tannen is a poor example, but serves to prove my point anyway.)

[darkgod]

Grey, I'll add the orphanage when you make a bunch of east lore !

[Burb Lulls]

[zig]Aah, so this is how the arcanists live with themselves. "You just don't understand what we're doing, maaan. Maaan, if you actually knew the facts about magic, you'd see how great we are..."

How droll.

Pray, tell me what grand, sweeping, earth-shaking fact we Ziguranth are missing that will show us the error of our ways?

Your actions following the Spellblaze, perhaps? Incidentally, the way you keep trying to downplay this? The millions of deaths, the nations lost? A continent destroyed? Very classy.

I can already hear you. "The plagues! We helped cure the plagues!" Fun fact: So did we. Our skills in herbalism are unsurpassed - just look at the fungus tree! The difference is, you did it for cheap publicity. We did it because witnessing others suffering from your actions is unacceptable.

But still, there's many more things you mages have done to repair the damage from the Spellblaze, correct? The Mark of the Spellblaze for instance, that scar upon Eyal's face, you work tirelessly upon it. No way you'd let the Rhaloren dig in there with absolutely no contest at all...

Oh. Wait.

... The scintillating caves, then! These sparkling depths are a veritable weapons cache to any mage with malevolent machinations on their mind! Allow them to fall into corruptor hands too?! The very thought is...

Oh. Wait.

So, what are you doing to help reverse the Spellblaze's damage? Gazing sympathetically from your towers in Angolwen doesn't count, by the way.

Ah, Angolwen. A progressive, educated, perfect domain... ruled under an eternal dictatorship. Do you see Linaniil stepping down from power anytime soon? It's amusing, we Ziguranth are called a cult when its the mages who worship a dead god.

After all, no-one else in the land seems to be highly educated...
Something that the quasi-educated (those educated enough to read, at any rate) could look through...
I'm looking at something designed to place intellectual knowledge out there...

"Lowly non-magical peons! Heed your betters! You shall not question our actions any further, because if you do, you are unintelligent! You don't want to be unintelligent, do you?"

Who is wearing the blinders, here? The mages' delusions of being an enlightened master race are sickening.

A rogue is expected to possess an encyclopaedic knowledge of poisons and other chemicals. They are skilled in misdirection, manipulation and human behaviour. Their trapcraft even displays a keen knowledge of high mechanics and engineering, skills unheard of... outside of the rumoured Fifth Pride...

A warrior holds masteries beyond the physical. The various guilds and training camps that raise fighters educate their charges in the art of warfare on every level conceivable. From tactics and techniques to utilise in single combat, to military strategies and the movement of armies on a global scale. Inevitably, such tutelage also imparts a great knowledge of history, and a knack for logistics and pragmatic thinking. A far cry from the simple 'armour-plated simpleton with a sword' you believe warriors to be, hm?

But no. Mages refuse to acknowledge any of this. Only they are intelligent, only their ideas are of any merit. Their "facts"...

*entirely insincere snicker*

There is more "intelligence" in the forging of a sword, the raising of a house, the ruling of a nation than the mages' woe-begotten begging for otherworldly powers' table scraps.

You think that only mages understand magic, since only they themselves can wield it? Of all the...

Imagine, if you will, that I strike you upon the face with a plated gauntlet with each syllable I speak, to improve the chances of my message getting through to you:

YOU - DO - NOT - NEED - TO - CON - TRACT - A - DIS - EASE - TO - STU - DY - IT.

Haven't you ever wondered how we developed our antimagical prowess? Antimagic shield, mana clash? By understanding your powers. And don't you dare claim that nature just gave us these abilities. We have bottled these powers, they are given to our new initiates. Anyone can become Ziguranth.

The countless tomes of arcane "knowledge" hoarded within the recesses of Angolwen's grand library... Our spies love what you've done with the main hall, by the way. Hahaha...

We understand magic. We understand its peril. We understand that you will not allow it to be controlled, and so we understand that you must be dealt with.

But I have gone on long enough. This shall be ignored, I assume, since it does not come from the mouth of a mage. Continue to sit upon your perch, arcanists, smugly considering the "elevated" worldview that your powers give you... powers you neither comprehend nor have earnt. Truly, mages these days see themselves as gods, do they not?

Then they should know what happens to gods.[/zig]

[Grey]

Nicely put, Burb :D

Regarding mages influence on documents in society, who is to say this does not happen already? There are many nobles sympathetic to Angolwen, and they have various ties to the world through Elvala. Lore pieces like the Analysis of the Races is not guided by Zigur hysteria, and Angolwen has had influence in ensuring they get a mention in the likes of Toknor's diaries. But they won't put out a blunt press release - they believe in subtlety.

[darkgod]

Neat

[PureQuestion]

Pssssst, giant green text doesn't make you cool

[Mewtarthio]

Pssssst, giant green text doesn't make you cool

But being Burb Lulls makes you cool enough anyway.

Oh, and since you reminded me: More Ward!

[Crim, The Red Thunder]

[mage]Truly, the arrogance of the foolish Ziguranth is unrivaled. How arrogant of you to assume that only you could have suffered in the tragedies of the spellblaze. Even more so given that you blame the CURRENT crop of mages for an event that occurred thousands of years ago, which we had absolutely no part in. The few alive today who were around then, might not even be blamed. Or would you say they 'caused' the spellblaze, by failing to prevent their foolish brethren? Those who are alive today and personally witnessed the tragedies of the spellblaze also witnessed their own family members perish from right before them. The devastation across the continent cost mage after mage members of their families, the same as YOU.

You denigrate our assistance in bringing life back to the lands. Tell me, how many fields of blighted decay did YOU restore to vibrant health at great effort, cleaning it of contaminations of forces you are not even capable of manipulating? Instead, you were busy stirring up hate across the continent and feeding the very fires of injustice that have claimed the lives of so many innocents, even those who were not mages!

You ask what we have done about places such as the spellblaze, or the scintillating caverns. At exactly what opportunity have we been able to harness the numbers necessary to attempt to rectify this mistake, or even send what few we have to do it, given that you and your ilk would attempt to kill us on sight, purely for our stylish headwear, and a conveniently located malformed calf.

You mock our form of government (a meritocracy, by the by, which is a far cry better then... what exactly do you heathens do for government, just indulge in some sort of chicken-killing auguries?) and yet you assume that we have some sort of problem with our leadership? Then you cast aspersions on us for... worshiping some god? What god do you speak of? Perhaps this 'magic' we use? The self-same magic that exists in the very fabric of the world, or rather, NATURE, in all it's glory, and has been there for so long as the world itself has existed?

As for being some sort of 'superior' race, we tolerate any comers of any variety to our order. Those who question us reasonably will be met with reasonable debate, and those who cast aspersions without due cause shall be frowned on as the lesser beings they are. After all, what could defined as 'lesser' more then refusing to listen to the thoughts and opinions of others? And as for matters of education, how many libraries or centers of learning do you see across the lands? You speak of the rudimentary knowledge (however unique) of tradesmen, without deigning to acknowledge the lack of overall education to any. 'Twould be akin to calling a farmer with a wand a 'Archmage' simply because they can cast a fireball. Do you think us lacking in the same disciplines? Our arcane blades could teach even your warriors a thing or two. As for teaching these warriors of large-scale tactics of armies and kingdoms, do you honestly expect us to believe that every soldier across Maj'Eyal could equally serve as a general and great leader of armies? That must create some large-scale dissension in the ranks of any army.

Even beyond our own magic, we hold trades, or do you believe that our houses and food just spring magically from the ether? That would be an even more foolish belief.

And then you go on to talk about magic as some sort of DISEASE?!? You only impugn your own understanding of the nature of the world, as magic is (and always has been) an inherent part of your own beloved nature! One does not CATCH magic, one chooses to learn about it, and any individual could do so. It is not some communicable horror that threatens the world, it is merely a part of the world upon which we stand, and in which we live. Could as easily say that 'air' is a disease. (Although, maybe your confusion surrounding a tool and disease makes sense, given the regard in which you hold your molds and fungus. Lessons in hygiene are another thing we could teach you naturists...)

As for bottling these 'powers' of antimagic, you are doing no more then stealing power from dead wyrms. Drawing upon what you can from a tincture or rather, POTION of there own blood you form yourself into this 'force of antimagic', ignoring the fact that you slaughter poor alchemists everywhere for doing the same thing themselves!

As for understanding magic, you understand nothing. You claim we do not allow magic to be controlled, yet what exactly do you think we teach those students who come to learn from us, parlour tricks, or how to CONTROL magic, that it not be misused. We attempt to instill in our students not only knowledge of the arcane aspects of the world, but also of morals and values, that they be able to acceptably determine what they should or should not do with the powers they hold.

And yet you blame us for the upstart hedge-mages and necromancers who use their powers with reckless abandon and a lack of morals, despite the fact that we failed to be their teacher, or to have anything to do with them. Perhaps we could hold a greater moral compass on magic if we weren't trapped in a single town bottled up by the hate you and your kindred stir up?

And you claim that we would ignore any such thoughts on your part indicates only that you are attempting to make excuses designed to avoid any attempt at negotiation or understanding. Nonetheless, we forgive you and the harm you are doing to the world, for you truly do not know better. By failing to attempt to understand the greater nature of the world, you attempt to 'protect' it, in a way you deem best by your understanding, and the fact that you are doing the wrong thing is mitigated by the fact that your goals in attempting to care for others might be laudable...

But is it enough to simply attempt the right thing? Or should you perhaps aspire higher to truly DO the right thing, and bring a greater peace to the world overall?[/mage]

A well written retort, deserves like in kind, no? Too bad I don't do this with the ease and speed of our local snow giant here. And we all know that blue text is superior to green.

Edit: Edited for foolish typos. Thanks for catching those. That'll teach me not to proofread my posts...

[PureQuestion]

Mages need to work on their there/their distinction