Integrating the orcish side fo the storyline

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Grey
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Re: Integrating the orcish side fo the storyline

#16 Post by Grey »

The Zigur guys are pretty sane. Magic has never made anything of lasting good in the world.
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Re: Integrating the orcish side fo the storyline

#17 Post by Crim, The Red Thunder »

Points to the ground Grey stands on (shaky at best) WORLD.

What is the creation of the world, if not magic, in some form?

While we're at it, let's go with cures for diseases, shield runes to protect helpless individuals... The list goes on and on... Just because magic ONCE did something horrible with the spellblaze does not make magic inherently evil. That would be like saying that all Germans are inherently evil because a few once commited an evil act.

Edit: Also, while we're at it, blaming the tool is also incorrect. MAGIC didn't cause the spellblaze anymore then guns kill people. MAGES caused the spellblaze, magic is just a tool they used to do it. Like guns, it is just a tool. Hell, I can throw a rock at a person and kill them, does that make a rock inherently evil? Similarly, I could use magic to save a person's life, does that make magic inherently good?

You can't blame a tool for the use that a user puts it to. If some guy decides to use a hammer to tear apart the foundation of a building and it kills thousands, was the hammer evil?
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Re: Integrating the orcish side fo the storyline

#18 Post by darkgod »

*loves to sit & watch debates about ingame lore & morality*
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Re: Integrating the orcish side fo the storyline

#19 Post by Mewtarthio »

Crim, The Red Thunder wrote:From the perspective of the lore: The Ziguranth are ignorant savages afraid of things they can't understand. (Explains why the cut out a potion-makers tongue, despite alchemy being science, not magic...)
That was a group of manaphobic villagers. The Ziguranth saved the alchemist.

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Re: Integrating the orcish side fo the storyline

#20 Post by Crim, The Red Thunder »

And who PROMOTED these feelings of manaphobia? The innocent mages who tried to defend the innocents and died for it, or the Ziguranth preaching mage-hate? Still places the blame on them. If the Ziguranth want the moral high ground, they should've punished the villagers, instead of encouraging this rampant fear and hysteria. Maybe then they could argue successfully for the evilness that is magic.

(Besides, you know they were standing and watching the whole event, while giggling.)

Besides, where would the world be without mages? The world would be a lifeless wasteland without the mages working to clean up the damage of the spellblaze, and the blight would have covered the entire world. With the mages here, the world actually gets SAVED.
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Re: Integrating the orcish side fo the storyline

#21 Post by Amphouse »

My problem with the Ziguranth is that they seem to believe that ALL magic users are "evil" and deserve to die, when that is far from the case. You can't just make sweeping generalizations about a group because of a few people or one event. Some mages are good. Heck, the Chronomancers at Point Zero are trying to hold the fabric of reality together and protect Maj'Eyal from invaders from other timelines, and yet the Ziguranth persecute them just like the rest, assuming they wield a new kind of evil without looking into their intentions.

Just because a group of mages in the past made a mistake when trying to repel the orcish invaders and caused an undoubtedly horrible magical disaster doesn't mean that all magic should be banned and all magic-users deserve to die, even if they had nothing to do with it. If the Ziguranth would attempt to understand people's intentions and focus on those mages that actually pose a threat to the world, I.E. the corruptors, I would give them my respect, but they won't.

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Re: Integrating the orcish side fo the storyline

#22 Post by Grey »

Crim, The Red Thunder wrote: Edit: Also, while we're at it, blaming the tool is also incorrect. MAGIC didn't cause the spellblaze anymore then guns kill people. MAGES caused the spellblaze, magic is just a tool they used to do it. Like guns, it is just a tool.
Well if you want to go down that route then I'm personally very much in favour of gun control laws :P And nuclear disarmament whilst we're at it. Some powers are more evil than they are good. Perhaps all power in the end.

Magic has a very bad track record, and even at the time of the game there are still necromancers, mad mages, demon summoners, etc. Mages are doing far worse things to society than the Ziguranth, and directly threatening to destruction of all life on the planet. I don't agree with their extreme policies, but the core concept that magic is just too potentially harmful a force to be allowed in wide use I can fully back. Especially when it leads to so many world-destroying threats!
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Re: Integrating the orcish side fo the storyline

#23 Post by Crim, The Red Thunder »

Look at the sheer number of mages in the world. Only a small handful are 'bad'. Urkis, Grand Corruptor, The two final bosses, and (debatable) Celia. Of those, 3 have actively evil goals, a fourth is just consumed with power, and the last turned to darkness to try and save the life of an unborn child, and have just a few precious moments more with her husband. A laudable goal, by all means.

Compare this to the vast populations of Angolwen, the Shaloren (who aren't all evil, and it's fairly clear that the Rhaloren are a rather small subset of them), the entire Sunwall... There's far more 'good mages' then 'bad mages'. A few bad apples don't inherently ruin the whole bunch. Additionally, the mages are trying to clean up the world and help it (at great personal risk) while the Ziguranth continue to live in the past and chew over the same tired grudges again and again, doing nothing to try and solve the problems.

(As for gun control, I probably should have found a less 'hot button issue' to make my point with, though the analogy stands)

The Ziguranth strike me as one of those pseudo-religious cults that proclaim all technology to be 'evil' and 'against god'. Hardly someone who should be allowed to have any real influence or power in the world. I don't see anything about logical reasoning within them, just an unreasoning hatred/fear of what they don't understand. For that matter, even holding a grudge against magic because of the spellblaze is unreasonable. It's a single event in the history of magic, not a continual chain of many repeated events. It's like hating all dogs because one dog bit you, once. Not a reasonable argument there...

Magic has created great good, even attempted to clean up the problems caused by it's past flaws. In real life, nuclear power is viewed with some degree of skepticism. And yes, mishandled it can be dangerous, and is not without it's flaws; but it can also provide a great deal of improvement in quality of life, and shouldn't just be denounced as bad simply for a few flaws.

As for all power being bad, don't go down the 'power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely' line. That's one of the biggest logical fallacies that many people espouse. Power is NOT a corrupting influence. People are or are not corrupt, innately. Power just gives them more opportunities to demonstrate it. For instance, a racist schmuck farmer who hates halflings has the opportunity to deny one employment. A racist lord of an entire nation with an army behind him has the opportunity to kill countless halflings in a war. The same situation exists for both people, one just has a greater opportunity. (That's not a perfect analogy for corruption, but I'm lacking in an appropriate one, and it does serve to get the point across.)

Similarly, someone who would happily steal some money to better themselves, may be able to get away with a few minor thefts, or, could be in a position of power and able to embezzle billions. They aren't suddenly more corrupt or evil then before, they simply have more options and opportunities available to them.
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Re: Integrating the orcish side fo the storyline

#24 Post by Grey »

Crim, The Red Thunder wrote:For that matter, even holding a grudge against magic because of the spellblaze is unreasonable. It's a single event in the history of magic, not a continual chain of many repeated events.
The Ziguranth were started during the Allure Wars, long before the Spellblaze, as a rebellion against the magic-fuelled wars between the halflings, humans and shaloren. The use of magic in warfare then was ravaging the land and causing much wider destruction than regular warfare.

Then the Spellblaze happened, which didn't exactly make the Zigur chaps change their mind. And then the diseases cropped up as a result, and many necromancers and tyrannical wizards began to dominate the continent. And then the Cataclysm, destroying whole cities. Then the orcs learned magic, and the Ziguranth were (according to them) vital in pushing them back and wiping them out.

And yet evil mages still appear, with whole cults of them threatening to bring widespread destruction. From their perspective Angolwen is another secretive cult who could well be plotting further destruction.

So yes, very much a continual chain of repeated events!
As for all power being bad, don't go down the 'power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely' line. That's one of the biggest logical fallacies that many people espouse. Power is NOT a corrupting influence. People are or are not corrupt, innately. Power just gives them more opportunities to demonstrate it.
Yes, which is the problem really. When you have a world where potentially destructive abilities are being encouraged then you will inevitably get people using that for bad. If that power can lead to the destruction of the whole world then you really don't want anyone using it! In the modern world we have laws and restrictions on nuclear material, but Maj'Eyal has nothing like that for magic. Let that power fall in the wrong hands and quite evidently it can lead to very bad things. The Ziguranth solution is to let that power fall into no-one's hands - a bit extreme but it gets the job done.

Also consider that anti-magic developed as a natural opposition to magic by nature itself. The natural order is innately opposed to destructive magic! Zigur would seem to have the fabric of the world itself on their side.
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Re: Integrating the orcish side fo the storyline

#25 Post by Crim, The Red Thunder »

Antimagic evolved (according to what I've read in forums here, from you or DG, would have to dig to find which) as a response to the destruction of the spellblaze itself (Like antibodies), which would seem to indicate that prior to this event, magic and nature got along fine. (The Angolwen lore seems to further hint at this (Actually it outright states it), which would seem to indicate the typical (and aforementioned) 3-sided conflict where we only see 2 sides, never the truth.)

And while yes, perhaps the powers of magic are sometimes applied to destructive, dangerous, world-ending means; this isn't a reason for the Ziguranth to assault all mages. Okay, let's say they are suspicious of Angolwen. They can investigate and attempt peaceful negotiation to determine there purposes BEFORE declaring a fatwa upon them. Should, however, one of these magical threats crop up, it might indeed be feasible for the Ziguranth to deal with it. Urkis and the sorcerers come to mind as examples of this. (And in fact is one reason why I suggested some time ago allowing us a choice of one ally in the final fight, instead of forcing Areyn) But to blindly assume that all people with this power would misuse it is indicative of a (willful?) ignorance of reality. As for the supposed 'continual' abuse of magic, certainly this wasn't as bad BEFORE half or more of the mages in the world were hunted down in retaliation of the actions of the FEW who caused the spellblaze. Magic would've been better controlled and understood (even accepted) back then. Furthermore, magic was used to TREAT some of those diseases. This indicates a definite spectrum of good and evil running across it that the Ziguranth completely ignore. And as for the devastation wrought by magic during the Allure wars, I can't completely comment. It's not something we currently have a clear view on (waiting on a new campaign to see an undiluted firsthand perspective of them, rather then misty legends corrupted by time, and even those thin), but any conflict would bring destruction and suffering. Magic is no different then the technology, in that it can always be misused. This would indicate that the Ziguranth will be equally opposed to mechanical technology in the upcoming orc campaign, because anyone might pick up a gun, or some form of bomb and destroy vast swaths of land. Tesla claimed to be able to split the earth with a several precisely placed bombs, if someone in Maj'Eyal attempts this, will the Ziguranth be equally fanatical against Technology?

As for the orcs discovering magic, surely you won't try to tell me that the Ziguranth hold mages responsible for that?



Whew, rambled a bit there...

Still seems that they're thinking with blinders on, only willing to see the evil of magic, without seeing the good, and seemingly incapable of seeing there own evils as well.


We need more lore to help settle this discussion. +1 for Allure wars campaign.
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Re: Integrating the orcish side fo the storyline

#26 Post by jotwebe »

Magic already has damaged Maj'Eyal far worse than we have damaged Earth with fossile fuels and nuclear power put together. So it's understandable that the Ziguranth are somewhat indiscriminate with their "better safe than sorry" attitude (and wouldn't it be boring if they weren't?). Plus Angolwen seems to be pretty bad at policing its own, considering the Urkis situation.
Edit:
Still seems that they're thinking with blinders on, only willing to see the evil of magic, without seeing the good, and seemingly incapable of seeing there own evils as well.
Difference is: Zig goes bad: a couple of dead people, very sad, ultimately business as usual. Mage goes bad: potentially the end of the world.
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Re: Integrating the orcish side fo the storyline

#27 Post by Crim, The Red Thunder »

jotwebe wrote:Difference is: Zig goes bad: a couple of dead people, very sad, ultimately business as usual. Mage goes bad: potentially the end of the world.
Ummm... How MANY people do you think the Ziguranth have wrongly persecuted? The lore already fills itself with blatantly ignorant superstition (You can spot a magic user by the increase in a womans moontide flow? Really? You ACTUALLY believe that?) as well as all kinds of lunacy (No mage has ever died to fire. Yeah, I know a few orc pyromancers who have something to say about that. And they'll say it with FIRE.) about magic. This further proves there (possibly willful) ignorance. You really think that everyone they ever killed was a mage? Or even half? A quarter? Hell, 1 in a 100? If you do, I'd advise you to look into a historical situtation called the Salem Witch Trials. Or, at the least, read The Crucible.

In all likelyhood, more innocents have died at the hands of the Ziguranth then mages. And that's WITHOUT counting the hysteria and mage hate they stir up in villagers, which would undoubtedly kill even more.
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Re: Integrating the orcish side fo the storyline

#28 Post by jotwebe »

Bah, that's peanuts compared to the Spellblaze. So maybe the Zig has killed a couple of thousand innocent people (counting victims of witchhunt hysteria, why not). Nothing compared to the deathtoll magic has caused. Which gotta be in the millions, perhaps even billions.

A difference to Salem: the danger is real. Perhaps they already did save the world once or twice, ever think about that?

Not arguing that it's right or even smart to indiscriminately persecute mages, just pointing out why they might have a point.
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Re: Integrating the orcish side fo the storyline

#29 Post by Grey »

Crim, The Red Thunder wrote: Still seems that they're thinking with blinders on, only willing to see the evil of magic, without seeing the good, and seemingly incapable of seeing there own evils as well.
Oh yes, very true, but I believe there is a seed of truth to much of what they believe in. Lots of ignorance too, but that's the same with many groups.

Also keep in mind that many things attributed to the Ziguranth is actually regular people, not them. The Spellhunt for instance was the general people rising up against mages. Zigur played a part, to be sure, but they didn't personally police all of the mass hysteria. The lore about the alchemist that was assaulted is an example of this.
We need more lore to help settle this discussion. +1 for Allure wars campaign.
Is that a request? Cause I'm sure anything I write will just muddy the waters more :P
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Re: Integrating the orcish side fo the storyline

#30 Post by Crim, The Red Thunder »

Writing more now doesn't help. You can't create accurate views from the perspectives of a single historian, or set of stories, even more so when it takes place so far back in the past. But an actual campaign where we take firsthand part in the allure wars, would give us a chance at making our own judgements.

Ideally, said campaign should offer us insight into both sides of the story, and force us to make a decision over which one we want to agree with, rather then force feeding us a single perspective.
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