Arcane answer to Manaclash?

[Crim, The Red Thunder]

It occurs to me that anyone who goes antimagic has things all their own way when it comes to enemies with any sort of resource affected by manaclash. Taking that nasty corruptor and turning it into a brawler by removing all it's vim is amazing and overpowerd.

Why is there no arcane equivalent to screw with Equilibrium, and mess with wyrmics/summoners/etc? While we're at it, why is there no arcane equivalent for silence? Something that disrupts there communications with nature, taking away there ability to breathe fire, or summon dragons, or whatever else for X turns. As for a 'natureclash' (lack of a better term) Why can't we pump up there EQ, giving them a decent fail rate to try and protect ourselves?

Where's the Mage Love?

Thoughts? Too powerful? Too weak? No point in adding?

[HousePet]

Too mirrory.

Also, most classical disables tend to work on nature power users.

Don't mean a few would be interesting.

[supermini]

It occurs to me that anyone who goes antimagic has things all their own way when it comes to enemies with any sort of resource affected by manaclash. Taking that nasty corruptor and turning it into a brawler by removing all it's vim is amazing and overpowerd.

I'd be careful of throwing words like overpowered around, especially when fighting against corruptors is concerned. I don't know how much experience you have got with corruptors, but they can nuke like no other, blight resistance is uncommon on non arcane-disrupting equipment, and not very common on mobs either (save a few immunes), they can boost cunning as a second stat (meaning more crits), they can wear heavy armor without penalty, etc. In short, they are one of the most powerful classes around, at least when normal difficulty is concerned. Yes, getting mana clashed sucks for them but that's about the only thing you'll fear - and guess what, it's not incapacitating which means that you can run away with a teleport/move.

Why is there no arcane equivalent to screw with Equilibrium, and mess with wyrmics/summoners/etc? While we're at it, why is there no arcane equivalent for silence? Something that disrupts there communications with nature, taking away there ability to breathe fire, or summon dragons, or whatever else for X turns. As for a 'natureclash' (lack of a better term) Why can't we pump up there EQ, giving them a decent fail rate to try and protect ourselves?

Where's the Mage Love?

Symmetric design is boring.

Mana clash (besides being a very situational skill) is balanced by the fact that you are giving up all arcane equipment and runes - including shield runes and teleports. I wouldn't say that it's nearly as good as you make it out to be. Useful vs. certain bosses and spellcasting rares, but that's about it. Vs regular mages you are better off just wiping the floor with them.

On the defense, each class has a different way to deal with mana clash. Mages use disruption shield, corruptors hold off on drain/1 shot the mana clashing fool, anorithils don't really care that much, necros can throw in pets, etc.

[Mewtarthio]

Why is there no arcane equivalent to screw with Equilibrium, and mess with wyrmics/summoners/etc? While we're at it, why is there no arcane equivalent for silence?

Because arcane magic is a profane, unnatural force that must always yield before the righteous power of Eyal?

[pheonix89]

Why is there no arcane equivalent to screw with Equilibrium, and mess with wyrmics/summoners/etc? While we're at it, why is there no arcane equivalent for silence?

Because arcane magic is a profane, unnatural force that must always yield before the righteous power of Eyal?

Two words: Stone Wardens. Seriously, they're the only class with a heavy emphasis on using multiple types of resources at once and they use mana and equilibrium. Anorithils are running pos/neg, which are just opposite sides of the same coin - Celestial. Even the various fighter/mage classes and shadowblade don't integrate their casting resource with stamina to anything like the level SW's mix mana and equilibrium.

Smartass comments aside, though, symmetrical design isn't necessarily good, and an arcane equivalent to mana-clash would have conceptual issues. For starters, what resources should it hit. Mana clash hits all the arcane resources because they all work on similar principles and it doesn't hit the only oddball, paradox (probably because increasing the paradox meter would be making things less natural, and lowering it would help the target). All the non-arcane resources work somewhat differently, and any ability to attack all of them would be blatantly a mirror of mana clash. It's really hard to imagine how the same effect could screw with equilibrium, psi and hatred, to be frank.

[Crim, The Red Thunder]

Why is there no arcane equivalent to screw with Equilibrium, and mess with wyrmics/summoners/etc? While we're at it, why is there no arcane equivalent for silence?

Because arcane magic is a profane, unnatural force that must always yield before the righteous power of Eyal?

Magic is an inherent PART of nature, and has existed for as long as the word itself has (Bar blight...), and therefore not 'unnatural'. As for other facets, It makes sense that the same ability can't screw with equilibrium, psi, hatred, stamina all at once. I can admit that much. But by it's very unnatural nature, it seems that blight at least should be able to interfere with communication with nature, or rather, equilibrium.

Psi and Stamina are both measures of a users natural reserves (arguably hatred as well), albeit one mental, the other physical. I see no qualms with an ability that 'tires' the target, depleting those resources. Should they both be up there at once? Probably not. But it remains an odd gap that you can't interfere with enemy nature-users, psioniscists, hate-mongers, or warriors. Warriors at least, conceiveably have other issues (range, mobility, and others...) but that caster types (equilibrium and psionicist, and doomed for hate-mongers) can screw with there opponents with impunity, as nothing stops them.

Twas just a thought. Apparently not a well liked one, but still a thought.

[CaptainTrips]

Mr. President, we must not allow a manaclash gap!

[Mewtarthio]

Magic is an inherent PART of nature, and has existed for as long as the word itself has (Bar blight...), and therefore not 'unnatural'.

I specified arcane magic. Word of Darkgod is that there is a significant difference between arcane and "natural" magic. Per Tarelion's lecture, natural magic (ie wild-gifts) involves harmonizing with and directing the "elemental threads," while arcane magic involves directly siphoning energy out of those threads. Wilders hail a cab to get where they're going, while arcanists steal a car. You can think of antimagic as the white blood cells of magic, reacting against a perceived attack on the "body's" resources. I suspect that the elemental threads are resilient enough that an arcanist can't disrupt them enough to cut off a wilder's power source (not without triggering another Spellblaze, at least).

(Note: The above should not be read as a commentary on the morality of arcane magic. All examples are strictly metaphorical.)

[SageAcrin]

From what I recall DarkGod saying, there are three opposed forces in the world of Eyal(one of which doesn't really exist yet.).

Nature opposes technology and the arcane, because they are essentially ways of taking control over it.

It's basically like trying to shove a shark into a sack. It's not really thinking about why it doesn't like this; It just doesn't, and then it eats your arm.

I don't think I really caught why technology is opposed to arcane, maybe I'm just forgetting it.

[String]

I suspect that the elemental threads are resilient enough that an arcanist can't disrupt them enough to cut off a wilder's power source (not without triggering another Spellblaze, at least).

fund it

[Planetus]

While I overall agree with not making the game too symmetrical, I did come up with one idea that I have to throw out (which kind of does just that ). Maybe, if you save Derth through Angolwen instead of Ziggur, you get an otherwise unobtainable talent (think a prodigy talent or relentless pursuit) that infuses the target with arcane energy. This energy does arcane damage over time based on your spellpower, and every turn adds to the target's equilibrium, as if an equilibrium talent had just been used. This does damage to everyone (unlike mana clash), but does it over time, and the spike in equilibrium would make those talents less likely to work, but not impossible.

I'm not sure how it should work in detail, though. For example, how much damage and equilibrium should it do? Should those to be approximately equal, or should one heavily outweigh the other? Should this talent use mana as a resource? That would make sense, but it would also effectively limit it's use outside of mana-using classes. On the other hand, should it really be free?

For balancing purposes, a long cooldown isn't likely to be that big a deal for something like this, since you probably would hope to use it to disable a nature-user for a while and then kill them before they could recover. At the same time, if we balance it by making it weak, it looses all it's attractiveness.

[Sirrocco]

Not Angolwen. Angolwen is trying to get along with the world. They don't want to kill the antimagic types - they just want to stay way the **** away from them. The person who would have what you need would be the Grand Corrupter, and it would be a Vim thing. Basically, you send a torrent of something *very* unnatural through them. It increases equilibrium, because you've basically just defiled them. It messes with psi, because, again, you've messed with their internals something fierce. Hatred... well, admittedly, it just increases hatred. I'm not exactly sure how it should be unlocked, but it would be made available by flattening Zigur, with the Grand Corrupter still alive at the end.

To make it a bit more distinct, rather than making it a ranged attack, we make it an area effect sustain - starts at range two or three, extends out to, say, 5 or 5 at max skill. Everyone in the aura takes blight damage each turn, in addition to having their resource pools messed with. For everyone in the aura, you yourself take damage every turn (not as much as they do) and gain vim.

Actually, possibly leave out the psi on this one. Just make it a nice little aura of Terrible Terrible Things that has an HP cost to the user, horks over equilibrium in the area and hands out hate like candy. Could be part of an unlockable "we're Corrupters, and we really don't like equilibrium very much" tree.

Not that I'm saying that this is a good idea - I just think that it's better than a straight-up exact equivalent.

Hmmm... and I like the idea of hate-based secondary costs to the tree, too. Possibly the highest skill in the tree could summon hostile shadows as a side effect.

...or just to be really wacky about this (and since I'm not actually suggesting that any of this be adopted, why not be wacky?) - Sever the Link (name could use improvement): Can only be used on an equilibrium-wielder. Deals a healthy amount of blight damage to a singel target, cranking their equilibrium *way* up. Deals elemental damage to everyone around them based on the mindpower of the target. If the target is killed by the attack or anyone is killed by the blast, there is a notable chance that they'l rise again with an additional class template (Cursed or Afflicted) and a few extra skills to match (but worth 0 exp and no extra gear drops). Obviously, a PC killed by this is still dead.

[pheonix89]

Not Angolwen. Angolwen is trying to get along with the world. They don't want to kill the antimagic types - they just want to stay way the **** away from them. The person who would have what you need would be the Grand Corrupter, and it would be a Vim thing. Basically, you send a torrent of something *very* unnatural through them. It increases equilibrium, because you've basically just defiled them. It messes with psi, because, again, you've messed with their internals something fierce. Hatred... well, admittedly, it just increases hatred. I'm not exactly sure how it should be unlocked, but it would be made available by flattening Zigur, with the Grand Corrupter still alive at the end.

To make it a bit more distinct, rather than making it a ranged attack, we make it an area effect sustain - starts at range two or three, extends out to, say, 5 or 5 at max skill. Everyone in the aura takes blight damage each turn, in addition to having their resource pools messed with. For everyone in the aura, you yourself take damage every turn (not as much as they do) and gain vim.

Actually, possibly leave out the psi on this one. Just make it a nice little aura of Terrible Terrible Things that has an HP cost to the user, horks over equilibrium in the area and hands out hate like candy. Could be part of an unlockable "we're Corrupters, and we really don't like equilibrium very much" tree.

Not that I'm saying that this is a good idea - I just think that it's better than a straight-up exact equivalent.

Hmmm... and I like the idea of hate-based secondary costs to the tree, too. Possibly the highest skill in the tree could summon hostile shadows as a side effect.

...or just to be really wacky about this (and since I'm not actually suggesting that any of this be adopted, why not be wacky?) - Sever the Link (name could use improvement): Can only be used on an equilibrium-wielder. Deals a healthy amount of blight damage to a singel target, cranking their equilibrium *way* up. Deals elemental damage to everyone around them based on the mindpower of the target. If the target is killed by the attack or anyone is killed by the blast, there is a notable chance that they'l rise again with an additional class template (Cursed or Afflicted) and a few extra skills to match (but worth 0 exp and no extra gear drops). Obviously, a PC killed by this is still dead.

Agreed. Angolwen's doesn't even have a problem with anti-magic abilities as a concept I believe, the problem is that Zigur has NO sense of target discrimination. Remember, these are the guys who consider TW's and Celestial users a bigger threat than Cursed and Doomed.

[Final Master]

Keep in mind, Cursed and Doom don't use magic - they are psychics.

[XLambda]

Agreed. Angolwen's doesn't even have a problem with anti-magic abilities as a concept I believe, the problem is that Zigur has NO sense of target discrimination. Remember, these are the guys who consider TW's and Celestial users a bigger threat than Cursed and Doomed.

Hm. This is a bit OT, but... do we actually have lore on the Doomed, apart from the Tranquil Meadow guy? I know the description says they used to be mages, but... that guy actually wasn't, right? And all outright ties to mages (the primal-magic tree, f.ex.) have been cut. I just think the Afflicted are a bit undefined lore-wise.