Race/Class Idea: Elementals [Coders aquired?]

[PureQuestion]

You're ignoring the artwork.

[phantomglider]

Have...have you read the enemy descriptions in the Breeding Pits? Because I think the description of the Orc Greatmother would automatically bump the game higher than an E.

[AlexMdle]

Well, I get what you mean. Even drunk I did have concerns for the seriousness of the tree and did the best to mitigate it. Even the concerns for incompatability with undead can be denied outright if the buff is treated as "poison" which undead, constructs and other creatures that lack a discernible metabolic system are immune to.
Even the comparison to graphic violence seems far-fetched. There is no graphic display of drunken enemies stumbling around and hurling slurred obscenities, or vomitting their guts out. For all the intents and purposes the game handles it as an abstract gameplay element. Yes, it could always be possible to replace it with some generic poison slurry tree, but that would weaken a thematic link between the talents. It would make it generic and less distinct. I seriously feel it's a moment where it's appropriate to leave what can hardly even be considered a controversal theme for the sake of integrity.
Of course, that's just my opinion. Any last word on this belongs to dg and if he feels it's not befitting, I'll change it.

[AlexanderR]

I don't understand, how using "drunkenness" as potentially deadly detrimental effect would give ToME higher ESRB rating. Are you implying, that real-life drinking would make you lose half of your health over 5 hours? Using such name is just as much of reference to drinking as ingame Catacombs - to virginal blood sacrifices. And it definitely does not sound out of place: ToME already uses much more weird thinks for combat. The only part, that sounds weird for me (leaving aside fact, that exhaling organic substance is something, that logically should use equilibrium) is damage type - IMO it should be nature, like with other poisons.

[Amphouse]

No no no, I mentioned it already but I wasn't really taking about ratings, that was just me trying and failing to explain myself...I was more worried that it was kinda immature, and that the tree would be hard to take seriously. But I see what you're talking about, AlexMdle, so I'll stop complaining. As least you know what I mean. Try to keep these ideas fairly serious, that's all I'm asking. It looks like you know what you're doing though.

[pheonix89]

Personally, I think you might want to add a couple more shared trees across all four elementals. It just feels odd to have the only trees shared between the members of a metaclass be the ones that twist it away from its original themes.

Edit: Potential balance issues spotted: None of the elementals appear to have an accuracy booster ala Combat accuracy from the combat training set, and if they have access to that then there are problems with layering the +weapon damage and physical power skills there with the ones in the metamorphosis sets.

[AlexMdle]

Hm. True. Im not entirely sure how to go about that yet. I guess I could stick accuracy here and there. Other than that I believe that the issue can be crunched down to right numbers. Most of it is really gonna need a serious value overhaul once the code goes live.

As to the shared trees, it's tricky. All 4 classes use different thematic resources. Case in point, Jadir lacks an air bar, everyone else lacks essence or heat and only naiar has the 'standard' resource of psi. Giving them shared trees opens a whole new can of worms, since those values have their own synergetic values that correspond to the class' playstyle. This basically binds my hands in the way that Im required to not use any of the four and it still has to be fitting. For example, while Geothermal is clearly fire+earth, it's based on the jagged body pasive and the other way around, all the extra trees for asha work with the heat mechanic.

This basically leaves the thematic equivalent of blight, arcane and temporal, with the former two being far easier to conceive and adapt.

THAAAAT BEING SAID, if you've got interesting concepts for trees that could thematically be shared by multiple classes and can go around the issue of differing costs and values, I'd love to hear those.

[pheonix89]

One, an advanced or enhanced antimagic tree for elementals who go that route. Seeing as going antimagic locks them out of two really nice trees, they ought to get something for it. Equilibrium fits them well as a generic resource, and failures can easily be reflavoured as problems caused by an excess of their element in the area. And anyway, the sand-worm queen heart means you have to consider the effects of them acquiring equilibrium access anyway.

Two, analogues to combat veteran and combat training. Would let you largely end-run the issue I brought up if you integrated them. Stick accuracy in there, drop the stamina regen skill, drop the +weapon skills, those should stay in the native trees. Keep the armor training effect, but toss in a bit of code locking elementals out of the ability to get combat training from the shops.

Three, nature or psi analogues to the blight and arcane trees. You already have crosstype active trees, and these actually feel more in theme.

Edit: For thematically shared trees like Geothermal, even if they aren't actually the same tree, having similar effects available to both halves of the theme would be awesome.

[AlexMdle]

Affirmative.

[AlexMdle]

Okay, reevaluated everything once more now that I actually had good nine hours of sleep.

I decided against making a class-interchangeable tree for accuracy, damage or armor. There's a number of reasons for that.

Firstly all four classes have a different need of those stats, there would be hell to balance if I had to adapt that single tree to all four of them, especially in light of the bonuses they already get. As you said, stacking them could lead to some potentially unbalanced damage output.

Secondly, I dislike the idea of a "bare necessities" tree. I would much rather weave those stats into the playstyle chosen by the player. As long as they are available early.

Third and kind of overlapping with the first, there would be a varying need of it in the first place. Naiar for example doesn't even rely on either physical power, weapon damage, accuracy or armor. It's almost entirely a spellcaster class with a huge emphasis on adaptability. Ice form already grants armor and armor hardiness, but you are still not going to play a tank. Differently, the closest Silyhe gets to close combat is more comparable to a rogue. It doesn't need armor, it needs defense.

With that said, I went over and reworked the individual base of each elemental except Naiar, who seems to have that shit under control.

Here's the list of changes:

Teluric Fist/Rock Shell switched around. Rock shell now grants armor.

Composure level 1 no longer grants armor, but 2.5x the armor hardiness.

Heavy hands now also increases weapon damage. (Not unarmed damage) Also renamed.

Boulder toss renamed, now also passively grants accuracy.

Afterecho does no longer increase physical power.



Blazes now adds physical power and deals percentage of weapon damage as extra fire damage.

Halved the physical power gain from insurmountable glut.

Speed of heat renamed and now also grants accuracy based on current heat.

Energy forge grants armor and armor hardiness, switched its place with Heat Mastery.



Transparency increases defense.

Light as a feather increases physical power and weapon damage.

Breath of life increases accuracy.

[pheonix89]

Glad to help. Just remember that you need to lock them out of the martial training option at the last hope shops to dodge that balance issue.

[AlexMdle]

I'll keep that in mind.

[HousePet]

I just made certain talents not stack with each other.

[AlexMdle]

Wait, kinda confused. What do you mean by that?

[Sradac]

his own staff combat tree does not stack with the bonuses of the vanilla staff combat in his druid addon, for example.