Expanding Mindstars for other classes

[Sedrahl]

I can't help but find it unusual that Mindstar Mastery is a Wild Gift talent tree, when there are multiple classes that find Mindstars (more specifically psiblades) necessary for effectiveness. Psionics most obviously, also Doomed and potentially Cursed as well all have excellent synergy with psiblades. One could well argue that most of these make better use of Psiblades as an actual melee weapon than Wilders do, yet they have to go through considerably more effort to get them, and for lower effectiveness in the form of talent mastery. It's very frustrating trying to do a mindstar melee character (Mindslayer, for instance) because you have to try to scrape together 750g while being unable to invest in a weapon mastery, and the options presented by Wilder for such a playstyle are poor.

Is there a specific reason it works like this? Is there no room for improvement? I feel like even something simple like splitting the Nature Mindstars and Mind Mindstars into two different categories with their own mastery trees, quirks, and ego sets would do these classes a lot of good. I'm really not sure what the ideal course of action is here, but hopefully this thread can create some discussion on the topic.

[aristalis]

sounds great

[Emaster]

It's very frustrating trying to do a mindstar melee character (Mindslayer, for instance) because you have to try to scrape together 750g while being unable to invest in a weapon mastery, and the options presented by Wilder for such a playstyle are poor.

You can remove points on talent if you didn't know.

While you get the 750g you can invest on weapon mastery and everytime you want to increase a generic talent, remove the points on weapon mastery and invest on your new talent, and put the talents again on weapon mastery.

This way the last generic points invested will always be the points invested on weapon mastery.

Just keep juggling with the points until you get the money for it.

[Sedrahl]

Yes, I know you can juggle points. I probably juggle points on Mindslayer more than any other class. The problem is that you only get 3 points to split between Weapon Mastery and Combat Accuracy (should you even meet the requirements for the former, after all you'll be pumping Will and not Strength.) leaving you quite weak in both, and of course you won't be able to temporarily invest in anything else. Collecting 750g pretty much guarantees you'll be clearing every single T1 from top to bottom, as well as dipping into The Maze and fighting some Adventurer parties if you want to have Mindstar Mastery online before Old Forest. (In case of Alchemist escorts.) For a melee class going that long with no real mastery investment is painful, to say the least.

However, something that can't be fixed with point-juggling is Undead being barred from Wild Gifts entirely. As it stands, you're completely SOL if you want to play an undead race as Psionic or Afflicted and use Mindstars.

It just bothers me that classes and races that may have good affinity for Mindstar usage are at such a disadvantage when Oozemancers and Summoners practically use them as glorified stat sticks.

[Strongpoint]

If you play some class in a way it doesn't designed for, I find it strange to complain that it's not that easy to start when you aim for late levels build... Some builds are bound to be harder from start

2 categories of mindstars look as practical as creating different skill groups for axes\maces\swords

[Frumple]

A non-equilibrium tree for mindstars would be pretty appropriate, though. We've got one for wilders and one for doomed (though not cursed, though maybe opening up gestures to cursed could be a thing.), but none for psionics, and a undead-capable mindstar tree would be pretty nice, really. Mindstar solipsists/doomed/mindslayers are far from a playstyle unintended for the classes, and as mentioned, currently undead of those classes can't access the tree at all, and only doomed have something native to the class related to mindstars.

We do have different weapon categories for different power sources, after all. It'd be more or less equivalent, especially since mindstars have been turned into primary weapons for at least two non-wilder classes, nowadays.

Really, we just need a psionic powered mindstar tree of some sort, and maybe a means to learn gestures during the campaign. A little side zone/encounter that offers some sort of choice between the two might be interesting...

[Sedrahl]

If you play some class in a way it doesn't designed for, I find it strange to complain that it's not that easy to start when you aim for late levels build... Some builds are bound to be harder from start

2 categories of mindstars look as practical as creating different skill groups for axes\maces\swords

How or why exactly are Mindslayers not designed to use Mindstar Mastery? All their abilities use Will and Cunning, Mindstars use Will and Cunning, and a good portion are directly improved by tele-wielding a Mindstar. Same goes for Doomed, they may have Gesture of Pain, however Psiblades still have their own advantages such as being less talent-costly and hitting twice per attack instead of once. (Very relevant when you take into account Madness and stacking on-hit effects) Even if you do opt for Gesture of Pain you'll be getting Psiblades anyway because it's a free boost in stats.

[SageAcrin]

How or why exactly are Mindslayers not designed to use Mindstar Mastery? All their abilities use Will and Cunning, Mindstars use Will and Cunning, and a good portion are directly improved by tele-wielding a Mindstar. Same goes for Doomed, they may have Gesture of Pain, however Psiblades still have their own advantages such as being less talent-costly and hitting twice per attack instead of once. (Very relevant when you take into account Madness and stacking on-hit effects) Even if you do opt for Gesture of Pain you'll be getting Psiblades anyway because it's a free boost in stats.

Because Mindstars didn't exist until a few...dozen or so? betas after Mindslayer.

There was a time where Mindslayers existed and Mindpower didn't, IIRC. (Or maybe that was just Cursed/Doomed.) The mind classes thing has been a gradual evolution.

Specifically, Mindstar combat oriented skills were designed to not be required by these classes, when Mindstars were made-that's why Mindstars have things like converting Will/Cun to combat stats so that you don't need Combat Accuracy, and why they tend to run to a lot of mind oriented statistical boosts, support boosts, and generally non-combat bonuses.

Mindstar Mastery being a universal thing came a bit after Mindstars-and Mindstars are an object, thematically, of nature, and classes like Mindslayer do not have any connection to nature. Basically, it doesn't fit from a thematic point of view to have half the cast naturally learning how to use Mindstars, because it's not something they're trained to do.

But for gameplay, they were designed not to need it, because of that thematic element, and Mindstar Mastery is generally a bonus for those classes, making them linearly better for the most part...which, in turn, also wasn't in the original design for those classes. It having a cost in gameplay(deciding how to use your points, paying money, not being accessable early) is meant to be part of the balance to that.

The short version; Mindslayers are designed not to use Mindstar Mastery because they were. There's a lot of reasons for it, that may not be immediately obvious, but they are there. This isn't to say that the game would explode violently if this was changed, but yeah.

Really, we just need a psionic powered mindstar tree of some sort, and maybe a means to learn gestures during the campaign.

And remove the storebought Mindstar Mastery, so that you don't get doubled up bonuses? (Or have them conflict when used at the same time, I guess, since the storebought would still be cool for very weird builds like Mindstar Rogues. Gestures already partially does conflict, so...) Yeah, that would be neat.

[Sedrahl]

I understand what you're saying, hence why in the very beginning I'd asked why (the only) Mindstar Mastery tree was a Wild Gift in the first place. The thing is, thematic elements can be changed for the sake of gameplay, and the thematic elements of mindstars aren't exactly perfect either. The average person probably asked themselves at least once why Wilders have the PSIblades ability when PSIonics don't. Also, I'd say there is little supporting the statement that Psionics are unrelated to nature, considering Mindstars can have Mind-based damage, Psi-enhancing egos, Mindpower bonuses for anyone (not just natural creatures, undead too) and Solipsists have a psionic ability that grants them a mindpower bonus for wearing Nature-Infused (or Psionic) equipment. Not to mention Yeeks, the most Psionic race, are also arguably the most in-touch with nature. The intention for Psi- and Hate-using classes to be able to use mindstars is quite clear.

That aside, all I'm saying is that in some shape or form other classes deserve Mindstar access or a Mindstar equivalent, for the sake of improving gameplay. Making another playstyle available to Psionics and Afflicted is not a bad thing. Simply a small change such as adding a new talent tree for them would bring a lot of benefit. My personal suggestion on the matter would be Psionics sharing a mastery tree, with Mindslayers having it unlocked and at a slightly higher Mastery than Solipsists, who have it locked. (Solipsists being a less melee-oriented, and having access to Dream Smith)

The hard part is figuring out what to do for Afflicted classes, since Gestures aren't much of a Psiblades replacement and thematically make little sense on Cursed in the first place.

[darkgod]

Just a note: mindslayers and all psionic classes have a connection to nature. Psionic forces are an evolution made by nature as an answer to the overuse of arcane forces.
You know, slay fire with something-that-look-like-fire-but-is-not-fire

[CaptainTrips]

Because Star Wars would have been so much better if everyone was wielding lightsabers, right?

It's interesting that mindstars have gone from a niche item to a necessity in such a short amount of time. Not only do we need easy access to Mindstar Mastery (thanks Zigur trainer!), but they should be well-suited to the majority of build-types as well.

...thematic elements can be changed for the sake of gameplay...

Making another playstyle available to Psionics and Afflicted is not a bad thing.

By this logic, we might as well allow archmages to go anti-magic, because it would open up a new playstyle, and who says there can't be a self-hating mage out there if it improves gameplay? Some restrictions are necessary to make things interesting - when everyone in the game is running around with lightsabers, they become commonplace and thus uninteresting. The idea that "more options = better" simply isn't true in many cases - if it were, the game should be most fun with cheat mode enabled and the Lua console open, which I'm fairly sure most players would disagree with. The interesting part of a game like ToME is learning to be successful within the framework of restrictions placed upon your character rather than commenting them out in the source code, imo.

[Frumple]

... it's less "lightsabers for everyone" than it is, "Oh Darkgod, giver of pain! A chunk of the lightsaber classes seem to be unable to turn on their lightsabers without help! Some of them can't turn them on at all! Please help!"

People aren't asking for mindstars to be well suited to all build types, just that they be better suited for a couple of very obvious ones that are currently left out in the lurch. Like undead solipsists or doomed, or mindstar users in general that don't want to go wilder for it. Mindstars in general are still very much a niche/gimmick build outside the mindpower classes, and would remain so even if there was an non-equilibrium mindstar category.

[darkgod]

Classes that do not have mindstar mastery by default are designed to be able to work without them. If you manage to learn it it's a bonus, not a requirement

[HousePet]

I wouldn't say no to some sort of Doomed escortee giving out Gestures

[Frumple]

Classes that do not have mindstar mastery by default are designed to be able to work without them. If you manage to learn it it's a bonus, not a requirement

Eehhh... mindstar mastery's not really a requirement on any of the classes, is it? Even summoners were kinda' doing fine before they got access, and as is they don't seem to be getting much use from it... the five most recent summoner winners when I checked the vault don't even have the tree unlocked. Wasn't until the seventh that I hit one that had unlocked mindstar mastery... and that one didn't put a single talent point into the tree

Not until the twelfth summoner winner did I find someone that had invested in the tree... and that was a single point into psiblades The one after put all of three points into psiblades. Not until this guy, twenty three summoners in, do you find someone with notable investment in the tree (and that, only 1/1/4/0).

Bonus would still be cool, s'just it'd be nice if the bonus was more... equitable Summoners don't seem to be getting much use out of it, give it to someone that'd actually use the bloody thing

E: *facepalm* I completely forgot oozemancers have mindstar mastery nowadays. Following post's points stand alright, though.