Weak enemy tweak ideas(Now with addon!)

[Grey]

Lots of nice ideas here. Lots of ways the minor details could be tweaked, but I really like the idea of spicing up all these "sack of HP" boring enemies.

[b0rsuk]

For me the large part of boredom in early game comes from layouts - random level generators.

Kor'pul looks like Dreadfell looks like High Peak looks like Rhalloren Camp. While not all of these zones are early game, you end up seeing the same layouts over and over. When you finish a game, you go from Kor'pul layout to Kor'pul layout. 3 + 3 + 9 + 5 = 20 levels of this layout in the game.

Norgos Lair and Old Forest are almost identical, one is more white. Norgos Lair also doesn't have any vaults. That's it. Oh, and Daikara uses the same layout as well. 11 levels of this layout.

3 of 4 prides use exactly the same layout every single level. That's 9 levels of this layout.

I probably missed quite a few levels. For example, does Sher'tul use Kor'pul template as well ? Dwarven beginning is 3 extra levels of Reknor.

In contrast, Trollmire and Old Forest are both forests, but look different.

[Infinitum]

Just going on a limb here but.. why not remove animals from the enemy list altogether? Spending the early levels bumping off the local fauna as opposed to beings that have actual reason to antagonize the player looks like another vestigial roguelike design decision to me.

Also, this would open up space for ambient critters - rats fluttering along along dark corridors, scampering down their holes as you approach. Mounds of maggots appearing around the corpses of fallen foes. Packs of jackals scurrying just outside the reach of your lantern, waiting for you to fell their next meal for them. Snakes actually minding their own business unless provoked, eating the occasional rodent passing by.

[Velorien]

Just going on a limb here but.. why not remove animals from the enemy list altogether? Spending the early levels bumping off the local fauna as opposed to beings that have actual reason to antagonize the player looks like another vestigial roguelike design decision to me.

On the other hand, this would undermine the stated goal of reducing repetitiveness. If you drastically reduce the enemy list, you end up seeing the exact same enemies over and over again, no matter where you go.

[SageAcrin]

Also, having relatively weak enemies enable oddball builds.

Due to ToME's 1/4/8/12 system for skills, some odd builds-even some classes in general-can be far harder than others to get off the ground, and too much of the system is built around the assumption that those level limits exist.

Basically it's way too much work to do right and arguably no gain. It's better to make the relatively weak enemies get a bit more competent later.

[wyzzarrdd]

Before buffing any low level enemies play a few melee types in nightmare (I haven't played insane but im sure its worse). For some builds the global speed and poison of a single copperhead snake make it necessary to flee from them or die if you get bad rolls.

The workaround is that weak builds have to slaughter the townspeople to grind their initial levels as that is generally safer than going through the real zones.

Adding evasion to ANYTHING is a bad idea as melee builds already have it tough enough. If anything there should be restrictions on what t1 can spawn since a bulwark rare is basically unkillable by anyone low level who does mostly physical damage.

[jotwebe]

Before buffing any low level enemies play a few melee types in nightmare (I haven't played insane but im sure its worse). For some builds the global speed and poison of a single copperhead snake make it necessary to flee from them or die if you get bad rolls.

And that is why nobody proposed buffing snakes.

Adding evasion to ANYTHING is a bad idea as melee builds already have it tough enough. If anything there should be restrictions on what t1 can spawn since a bulwark rare is basically unkillable by anyone low level who does mostly physical damage.

Well that's a point. But in general Nightmare difficulty is not what the game is balanced around.

[Infinitum]

On the other hand, this would undermine the stated goal of reducing repetitiveness. If you drastically reduce the enemy list, you end up seeing the exact same enemies over and over again, no matter where you go.

Seeing as most animals/jellies/chaff are functionally identical I don't think it does. Heck, removing them altogether might even increase the distinctiveness of the different zones (eg the contrast between Scintillating Caves and Trollmire would be greater if one only contained crystals and the other super meatbags). Most zones could do with only 2-3 basic enemy types so long as they provide distinct flavor and gameplay challenges (the Temporal Warden and Archmage starts are good examples of these, as is the Deep Bellow). If anything, invent new enemies with actual mechanics to cover up the holes.

[Grey]

Some difference in behaviour pattern might be nice. For instance:

- Rats/mice only attack when there are at least 2 other enemies around, otherwise they run away
- Ants patrol the area and only attack if provoked
- Snakes run away in corridors and attack in open spaces

But the talent tweaks originally suggested would be quick and easy to implement, and would add some flavour at least.

[omero]

You know, I've heard a lot of people say the earlygame is boring.
And that's fair, to a degree, I feel like. But, why?
...[SNIP]...

Please add me to the 'a lot of people' count

I'm a new player (few weeks) and never got really past Dreadfell with anything (ok, just once),
thus I run through the early stages of the game quite a lot. It's not that the T1 areas aren't challenging at the beginning, it's just that they soon become routine cleanup after the time you've visited the 3rd one.
I always never want to skip any of them, since one needs those every little bit of XP to get going.
Never skip vaults or chests either, even if that's what's killing my characters more than the Weirdling Beast.

If the T1 zones scaled better with the level of who's entering them, there wouldn't be any need for that 'Too Easy for you' clumsy trick that ends one dropped to the last floor of a zone, completely disrupting immersion.

Wouldn't just a little HP and damage bumping be enough?
Ok, maybe some more (minor) diseases and poisons but... Not too much, eh?

I'm sure I'll have plenty of fun when I'll eventually unlock nightmare

[Crim, The Red Thunder]

Nightmare is already unlocked, or did you mean insane?

[wobbly]

How about progressively giving 1 talent level every 5 levels in a specific tree.
Like:
Rodents - stealth tree (stealth -> shadowstrike -> hide in plain site -> unseen actions -> lvl 2 stealth -> etc.)
Wolves - cunning/scoundrel (lacerating strikes -> scoundrels strategies -> nimble movements -> misdirection -> etc.)
Jellies - dreaming tree ( 'cause they put me to sleep anyway, also eventually gives them a way to move)
Trolls - conditioning

Edit: 1/2 on rares, bar uniques/bosses

Bears - Grappling

Edit2:

Molds - wild gift/harmony?? (could be nasty when they start getting healing nexus at lvl 20)

[Crim, The Red Thunder]

Stealthed rodents that only attack when there are more creatures is an interesting concept, if that AI setting is right. They could be completely overlooked as you pass through a room, and then strike when you least expect it, when you're busy dealing with other things. I like.

[SageAcrin]

http://te4.org/games/addons/tome/critte ... ter-tweaks

Check it out.

The hatchling idea was removed, and some smaller/moderate tweaks were made to the other ideas(snakes weren't buffed, swarms mostly just got Heightened Reflexes, Molds mostly just got Slime Roots, Slimes got Slime Spit and had to be repeatedly nerfed afterwards.), but I think it's good now. Try it out, see what you think.

Edit: Also, as a note, while lots of caps were placed on skills, it's not necessarily enough to prevent Nightmare from making some enemies overly powerful. I'm not sure-Skeleton Mages should still outclass the powered up versions of everything by miles, for instance-but if someone's a Nightmare player, their feedback would be notably appreciated.

Edit 2: Fixed for 1.01. http://te4.org/games/addons/tome/critte ... tweaks-101 . Not that it took much work.